What is your experience of G and T in primary school?

[ProfessorGrammaticus]

My DS1 has been marked by the school as G and T. This was not at my request - it seems to be in an effort to get access to extra resources for him. The teacher who has his class (yr2) does not seem too sure what difference this will make in practice. I wondered what other primary schools did?

I know DS1 will not want a big song and dance made (nor would I) but on the other hand, he is beginning to get bored in lessons and I would not want this to continue.
I would like to know what experience others have had and am crossing my fingers for a constructive and maybe even supportive thread

WE have had issues at secondary school (yr 7) with the selection of the G+T kids, which I posted about a few months ago and caused a ruckus
DS has always worked yrs ahead in maths and is easily in top 5% in all subjects, very top at maths and science and art and tech and languages, but he fell down (ha ha ha such a failure and this is why I went nuts) in comprehension tests, he only got 79% SHOCK!
And he missed out on G_+T selection and therefore all the summer programmes available because the school did not use all the different methods available of selection. they used a uniform working abover 80% in core subjects.
My ds meanwhile was doing GCSE maths and statistics, advanced science groups and cinese and french, and he missed out. He just wanted to know why he missed out.
So I asked, it was only by asking and discussing on here that I was able to go back to the school and ask them to double check their selection options and reapply. So they did and ds easily came into the scheme as did one or two others.
But this is going off at a tangent, but be aware that many schools are wrestling with G+T identification pressures for the first time and mistakes are made
FWIW I would not describe ds as a genius, or a prodigy, he is an exceptionally able student is all and his needs should be catered for, as should my dds needs, (she has SN)

I must talk to you about DS1 then - he wants to do more difficult maths, but doesn't want to ask his class teacher about it!

I must talk to you about DS1 then - he wants to do more difficult maths, but doesn't want to ask his class teacher about it!

Found your post really interesting and helpful, Doddle. If you or anyone could give me advice, I'd really appreciate it.

My 6 and a half year old (year 1) is in Year 1 at a reasonable state school which was however criticised in its last Ofsted report for lack of/bad provision for G and T pupils. I don't know if she is - I know (from her and other mums) she was the first one reading 'proper' books and given 'free' readers by her school but otherwise have had little feedback from her teachers. As she is one of the older ones in her class of very young kids (lots of late summer birthdays), even if she's not unusually gifted (which I don't think she is, just bright), she'd be expected to be near top of class just on age alone. But teaching doesn't seem to take this into account - she frequently says she's bored and that she already knows what she's doing in class; trouble is I think teacher dislikes her as she's inattentive (bored) and doesn't put effort into her work eg presentation as she finds it boring and a waste of time. What should I do? i've tried talking to teacher but found her defensive and uninterested.

As example, DD was reading Famous Five -type books by end of reception - I don't think this is exceptional, just above her class which told me in class newsletter near end of Reception year they were doing the letter J! - this when she was reading whole books unaided! I know she needs more appropriate work at school to prevent her becoming disaffected with whole thing, but don't know what course of action to take. Am I overreacting? Those of you whose kids were identified as G and T - what sorts of things were they doing which got them this additional help?
Any advice appreciated - sorry for long post.

I took on most of the extension type work at home tbh esp for maths and reading. Letting ds count and calculate change, buying cd roms with maths games, sending him to kumon maths class for a while, plus buying letts workbooks that were for a yr or two above him
When he did these with ease ( I would have struggled with one or two and I'm not dumb) I then sought out help from the teacher who after reaching a similar conclusion plonked him under the "able and exceptional" group and put him up a year for maths, which as he done that already achieved sod all
It very much falls on you as the parent at primary level, teachers have 30 kids and the priority must always be to offer the most help those that are struggling. I kinda figured somewhow I produced this maths loving alien child so therefore I'd have to educate him LOL

Doddle - it is always reassuring to hear that some schools work very hard to provide for all their children. Both you and your school seem committed to enhancing and enriching education and recognising the needs of each child. Unfortunately, this just isn't the case everywhere and once again I am left feeling that I am letting my children down by sending them somewhere where I know this to be the case. This isn't a failing school in any way and yet differentiation just isn't applied. What can you do? As I mentioned in a previous post I feel that this is entirely my resoponsibility which is fine as I am keen enough to do it but this might not be the case for other children. I know I am seen as "pushy" by the teachers but all I actually want is work of an appropriate standard to be taught to my children. Not exactly asking much I'd have thought!

You okay, yoyo? You sound really down. You're not letting your children down I'm sure your're compensating for the school's shortcomings. But I know how you feel it just seems such a wasted opportunity to make education really work for the children.

Carolt, your dd sounds typical of what many of us have encountered. My dd is mercifully one of the youngest in her year, otherwise things would have been even worse. She too was reading proper books (Sophie, Enid Blyton, Mr Majeika) by the time she turned 5, while the school were handing out ORT Level 3 books. If the teacher isn't on board, you can take it higher up deputy head, head, governors. But you have to balance the likely usefulness of that against the fact that you will be seen as a pushy PITA in the end, if there's no will to cater for all abilities at school management and classteacher level, it just ain't gonna happen, despite all the hot air they may produce to the contrary. A lot of teachers really resent brighter kids, partly because it's extra work for them, and partly I think because they find it threatening to be questioned or challenged. The weaker the teacher the more likely this is to be a problem.

Sorry to sound so downbeat -- like yoyo I've had a gutful of it. For years our school's G&T provision consisted of occasionally taking small groups out once a week for a spelling test(!). Four weeks before the Ofsted inspection they set up a proper G&T programme (Y5 pupils doing bits of Shakespeare, maths projects on MC Escher, French lessons for all the juniors etc), and dd1 loved it. It was one of the few times I've seen her really excited and inspired by something she was doing at school. The week after the Ofsted inspection, they pulled it. That was the point at which we threw in the towel and stopped expecting anything.

Doddle, if all teachers were like you there would be no need for G&T classification.

Many people confuse G&T with 'genius', lets say the 1 in 100,000 whereas G&T is 1 in 7. Very few schools would be able to give appropriate help to the genius kids, and in those cases the burden will fall on the parents. But the G&T scheme will help the 1 in 7 where it makes teachers think a litle bit more, as can be seen in roisin's school.

I agree with so many of you! DS1 is not by any means "savant"; he is "gifted" as doddle says ie "bright" as many others would say! (Only the government could come up with this G & T label!)
He can read and understand broadsheet newspaper articles, has independently read and understood all the Harry Potter and Narnia books (except for the flirting parts, bless him) and is generally very academically able. His teacher, who is in her 50s, lively and committed, clearly feels let down by the lack of resources made available to her and by the fact that she is told not to move him onto the junior curriculum but not provided with anything to broaden out the infant curriculum. She finds it a challenge to meet his needs in a class of 30 though I do think she does what she can. He is not the only able child in the class, of course, but he is the furthest ahead.
He has just done level 3 SATs papers in yr2 and got full marks on them all - so the issue surely is how he will be stretched and engaged in yr3 next year.
And it is hard to know what to do for the best. I guess I will have a chat with the Head before the start of yr3 to get an idea of the targets they will set for him and keep throwing him things to do at home. We don't want to move him to the private sector if we can help it because he has a lovely set of local friends which to us (and I'm sure to him) counts for a lot.
He has no idea about any of this - he just knows I speak to his teacher occasionally "to make sure he keeps getting some harder work as well". I have done this twice. I have never spoken to the Head before...

Doddle, I would really value your opinion on what to do for the best. DS1 is a sunny and compliant child with a good concentration span. He enjoys school work, problem solving at home, crosswords, Sudoku, construction projects, anything that engages him. He enjoyed the SATs papers because he said they were harder than usual school work (he didn't know they were SATs papers, btw). His behaviour is not at all "eccentric", socially he is not at all unusual.

And figroll, I could have written your post, you are completely and utterly right.
Sorry everyone - three posts in a row! - I did start the thread, but now I am taking liberties and will go and do some work

I don't have a school-age child yet and have to admit that I was in the past a little scornful about the gifted and talented posts on Education (although only in my head) but it has been interesting reading this thread and understanding some of the problems and dilemmas some of you face.

I think, like a lot of you, that I have a problem with the label but absoultely no problem with accepting that the top end of a school class needs to be catered for by schools as much as the bottom end and the average.

dinosaure, has your son explored the Murderous Maths series? If he's exhausted those, what about Martin Gardner?

So far IME the most tricky time for more able children in school is KS1. DS1 has really flourished with the freedom to explore broader subjects in KS2.

Many reception teachers follow a fairly rigid Jolly Phonics programme and - as CarolT - describes more able children can become rather frustrated if they have to sit on the carpet for 20 minutes a day, basically talking about the Letter J all week. Fortunately for us ds2's reception teacher told us why he was fidgetty and inattentive during carpet time, rather than the other way around: and she came up with some solutions.

Yr1&2 are often similarly rigid in structure due to govt-enforced SATs, literacy hour etc. Teachers have to work exceptionally hard IMO to find some flexibility within that structure to challenge the top, say, 5% of pupils.

Also at this age some teachers do still equate ability with beautiful handwriting, neat presentation, and general compliance and good behaviour.

Even in our fabulous school ds2 had a teacher like this in yr1. But fortunately just for a year, and he survived relatively unscathed, and soon threw off her influence! His yr2 teacher initially criticised him because he was becoming a bit of a perfectionist and wasn't producing the volume of writing of which he was capable, but instead was obsessing about the neatness of the letter formation ... aarrrggghh!

But he's got over it now

I suppose ds would fall under "savant " for maths at least - still not easy to steer him though!
However was just phoned by his maths teacher about his internal exam result.
As ds is working in advanced yr 7 set, doing gcse coursework with a view to early sit of stats papers. Teacher stuck in 3 problems that had superior complex answers, ie: no actual answers only extensive formulae and reduced formulae??? WTF???
And ds got them all right, I did not even understand the teachers explantion let alone the question.
However ds also multiplied 4665 x .65 as his columns were an atrocious mess.
Teacher said he cannot keep him in the upper maths set if he is getting basic problems wrong
This could be a good kick up the ass for ds though...
Am a bit flummoxed, ds reads maths coursework in his spare time, like he really loves it...

Frogs - yes, I'm okay thanks. I think I have finally reached the end of the road with my attempts at getting the school to recognise the individual needs of children. This really saddens me and as I am a governor (thought it would give me some insight and leverage - ha, ha) I am questioning whether I should resign or not.

In addition, DD1 seems to have lost interest and uses "it doesn't matter whether I work hard or not as (teacher) doesn't notice anyway" which is actually difficult to argue.
I cannot wait until she starts at secondary - a whole year to get through and am praying that they don't shuffle the teachers around so that she gets this teacher again. I will withdraw her if that happens.

yoyo we had this with ds in yr 5 he had done really well all the way through, never any trouble always did well, but he never got recognised and he started to real feel like he wasn't worth much.
He really put some effort in a finally got an achievement award. I know its very important to reward children who try very hard and perhaps struggle, but do work hard to overcome things, but it is also very important that children who do well and this is not just high achievers but those kids who just get on with it and do it, are recognised too. this comes back to the 30 kids per teacher as well. It's just not enough for very young children ie: the 1st 3 yrs of school.
I have a friend who is an ex traveller, skirted with crime, very low level of education. she has 4 kids, eldest is in prison, however she met a wonderful man when her two eldest were 4+6 yrs old, he has really brought her out of herself, she is a salt of the earth lass and was my child minder for several years. Her 3rd has been put on the G+T register for maths and science and she is struggling for ways to help him, as she is not educated enough to help him at home. It'd all very well for us who have access and skills to resources, but the system really needs to do more for kids who have low parental resources too.
Bug bear GRRR

Piffle - I think it happens with a lot of children but it is reassuring to read in your other posts that things did eventually work out for your son. I totally agree that my children are fortunate in that their parents are well educated and have the means to provide them with the extras but my concerns do go beyond my own children. I know that ultimately my children will be fine - they will hopefully achieve what thay are capable of and lead fulfilling lives. Strange though it may sound I sometimes wish I was less interested in education as I'm sure my life would be easier and I wouldn't be half as wound up about it.

Me also Yoyo!

Hallgerda, thanks for that - another poster has also put me on to Murderous Maths - I'm going to investigate! I think that generally I haven't been sufficiently pro-active about this sort of thing.

Hmmmm, I think a lot depends on the school. I went to a bulk standard primary school that really didn't cope well with me at all. The long and the short of it was that I did get bored and I would just interupt the teacher the whole time telling them how I already knew that etc. etc. I spent many lessons standing outside the classroom door for being 'naughty'. I think I drove most of my classmates mad. I refused to go to a private secondary school and then to compensate for having been 'sad/posh/swat' at primary school at secondary school I made friends with all the 'popular people' didn't turn up for school at all on some days (bunking off at older friends houses - very dodgy) and saw my grades drop from 80-90% to about 40-60% in less than a year. I didn't get my act together until my g.c.s.e. mocks.
Now something constructive: extra resources sound like a good idea. Perhaps working ahead of the rest of the class either through self study or study with a peripatetic teacher? Other than that with hindsight - always asuming one can afford it/get a scholarship - a high achieving independent school would seem the obvious option to me and at primary level so that the culture/idea of a private school is accepted early on. Otherwise the child might just refuse to go. Going to secondary school is unsettling enough without leaving all ones friends behind. Having said that I turned out ok even if I did hate various stages of my schooling but I hear that from lots of people regardless of the school they went to or their ability.
I have to agree with the G&T label being terrible though. Ughh fancy having a department who sit around thinking up names like that. If they spent less time telling teachers what to do and more time allowing teachers to do what they've been trained for I reckon more and better teachers would go into teaching and be aware of and therefore cater for the top 5-10% themselves.

I don't think the G&T label existed when my daughter was in primary school. In those days they were just "Able Pupils", which is an equally non~sensical label when you find yourself wondering exactly waht that make all the other pupils?! LOL!

I think the G&T thing causes a great deal of resentment among anxious, middle~class parents whose own children don't get on the register!

The harsh truth is that children are not born equal, and the G&T register is there to identify those kids for whom mainstream education and the normal pace of curriculum delivery will not always be adequate. It's not just the schools that have to step up their provision, parents have a part to play in this as well because a G&T child has 'spare capacity' for knowledge and challenge that can be provided in the home environment too.

While every parent regards their child as 'special' and all children are valuable, the G&T child ~ if correctly identified and provided for ~ will almost certainly be 'better' in many ways and that is nothing to be ashamed of.

My DS (4 in November), having been at nursery since he was tiny (I work FT), started at a private nursery/pre-prep last week after we moved over the summer. For the first time he is with his "proper" year group, who will go into reception next September. After 1 week, his class teacher said that she thought, intellectually and socially, he would be better off in the reception class. Since he is big for his age he always gets mistaken for and expected to behave like an older child, which worries me, but I was reassured that she did seem to have considered all aspects - she said she had others in the group who were intellectually able but not socially and she was not recommending the same move for them.

Normally a happy, sociable, caring little boy, we have already found he is a nightmare when bored/unchallenged - at his last nursery he mounted a sustained campaign to move up to the pre-school group 5 months before his 3rd birthday (and got his way, inspite of their objections about staff ratios, etc, etc) so we have decided to go for it - but we are concerned that we may be asking for trouble when/if we later move him to a state primary, which is the current plan. Does anyone have experience of moving from private to state sectors and whether they will keep him with the year group above once he has made that move?

We were offered the choice to accelerate DD and declined-this was partly due to my own experiences of acceleration as a child. I would be even more reluctant to accelerate a child if I was not sure they would not be staying at that school for some time. I imagine that any new school would be reluctant to automatically accelerate a child and depending on how oversubscribed state schools are in your area you could be opening a can of worms (assuming that you had planned to move into the state sector sooner rather than later)

Also, if there is a group of able children in his year surely the teacher will be providing differentiated work so the issue of boredom shouldn't arise. DD has just gone into Y1 and TBH Reception wasn't that different to nursery, still lots of learning through play and working in small groups.

I am hoping for the best on the basis that I have been told that that DS's year group is quite small in the surrounding villages (v. rural area with good village schools - the main reason for our move as where we lived previously he would have been in a reception group of 30+) and several of the schools have combined reception / year 1 classes. We were planning to move him after 2 years (i.e. into Year 1, if he stays with his year group) as we figured 2 big moves in 12 months was not really fair on him. Worst case, we could leave him where he is until Year 3. I agree with your reservations - but with a November birthday I am not sure it really counts as "acceleration" - he will only be the youngest by a couple of months?