What is your experience of G and T in primary school?

[ProfessorGrammaticus]

My DS1 has been marked by the school as G and T. This was not at my request - it seems to be in an effort to get access to extra resources for him. The teacher who has his class (yr2) does not seem too sure what difference this will make in practice. I wondered what other primary schools did?

I know DS1 will not want a big song and dance made (nor would I) but on the other hand, he is beginning to get bored in lessons and I would not want this to continue.
I would like to know what experience others have had and am crossing my fingers for a constructive and maybe even supportive thread

should have said GDG, that's not to say your boy isn't G&T

DD is in Reception at a private school. It does extremely well academically but does not select at 3/4. In theory the provision for DD is excellent, she has an IEP and joins in classwork where appropriate but also does extended versions of whatever everyone else is doing. She is extremely happy there.

There are one or two issues, but I think these are in part due to her having a rather old school teacher. TBH we have decided to just ignore the teacher and be led by DD. I'm slightly concerned as we are getting mumblings that DD has "a dismissive attitude to the work that she does as part of the whole class" (i.e. the non-differentiated stuff) but DH is firmly of the opinion that it is up to the teacher to address this.

Absolutely a more balanced approach would be wider breadth of a subject covered rather than new topics for extension work, this keeps the G+T kids in touch with their class and peers.
I was advised that my ds should go up from yr3 to yr4 however he was socially immature despite his intelligence so I kept him back in his own year. In hindsight I think I made the right choice.
Agree with foxinsoskcs that early readers just need books and lots of them, I recall the teacher expressing concern in yr 3 when ds was reading the Narnia chonicles. He had finsihed all the reading tree books, the teacher said, but he won't understand the narnia books.
D'oh, and he won't if he doesn't read them either.
FWIW bright kids are often seen as a pain in the arse for many schools. Hence you get labelled as a pushy parent.

Sorry, that sounds awful! I mean that the teacher thinks DD should have taught herself to use speech marks etc. and DD clearly hasn't. Teacher is very hung up on this, we don't care.

"Dismissive of classwork" means that DD rushes her maths worksheets, answers put in wrong boxes and so on. Teacher upset because DD clearly knows that 8+7=15 when asked.

G&T is a new initative of the government. All schools now have to identify a percentage of children in the school who are G&T. Children who are on the school's G&T register need to be identified with a particular curriculum area ie numeracy, literacy, creativity etc.

www.standards.dfes.gov.uk/giftedandtalented/

oooh thats interesting barefeet do that link again though

\link{http://www.standards.dfes.gov.uk/giftedandtalented/}

whoops!!!

so true piffle on the pushy bit. They start to make you feel like you are imagining your child is gifted and I feel myself holding back when I i know i should really say something for ds sake

I think it's good that a topic has been added on Mumsnet about this, if only so parents with supposedly "G&T" kids can talk about it, cos it sure as hell is difficult to in RL (the reaction on here gave a taster).

I think the label is crap too, but while it's being used in the education system, then it needs to be discussed.

From my own experience as a teacher in the state sector, and now as a parent, quite a lot of childrens "gifts" and "talents" can be overlooked, although they might be unearthed by chance whilst trundling along the National Curriculum Railway, passing through the stations of KS1 and KS2 sats.

We don't usually cover formal musical notation in Y1, but one day, early in the year, I showed my class a simple piece of music, and then I played it on a small glockenspiel. I let children take turns having a go on the glockenspiels I had set up. Most were merrily bashing away, role playing what I had shown them. But I could hear something faintly musical above the din. One of the children was actually reading the music on the overhead projector and playing perfectly!

She was only just 5, so I assumed she must have been having some kind of private music lessons. Anyway, talked to her Mum that afternoon and no, wasn't having lessons, never been exposed to notation before etc etc. I'd have expected this gift to have surfaced perhaps in Maths, but it hadn't so far.

Anyway, she started violin lessons through school and was going great guns. Interestingly her maths did then shoot ahead ability wise.

It was really only a chance discovery though - if I'd stuck rigidly to the curriculum plan I was following (which we were required to do as teachers), the we would have been none the wiser.

I think that ideally children who are 'gifed' in a particular area should have their academic needs met by extending their classwork within their own class. So they do the same topics as the others but just have the goal posts moved slightly.

It's a big thing to carry for a 5 year old to be 'gifted' A lot of pressure if you ask me - on the child, parents and teachers.

I am a teacher/ turned parent too Puff and I think the label stinks too.

I think the label is not brilliant, but I also think it is important that children are formally identified as having additional needs. Without that, most schools would not make special provision for the top 15% - what a waste of talent that would be! Even if it only results in good readers being given more challenging books, it is worthwhile. If the kids are not identified in some way, then they won't get the harder books.

At primary level there is a vast difference between the oldest and the youngest in one class. If your child is mature and at the top of the age range, then it might be appropriate to move up a year. But not for children born in June - August.

I know some children are assessed as Level 4 in year 3. What are they supposed to do for the next three years?

As this is a new govt initiative, it will probably take a few years before G&T co-ordinators become fully competent. There will be pockets of excellence, but so far I get the impression from here that most schools do not really know what to do.

i found that the school didn't realise that ds had the g&t.i used to use a plain plastic bottle and it just looked sparkling mineral water.he used to have it nbefore lunch and he was always calmer in the afternoons.

Any ideas for what we should call our little freaks

puff, your post about the little girl and how you identified her gifts in music expresses one of our overriding reasons for choosing an independent school for our dcs. (It's a small, cosy, non-academically selective one).
We were very concerned that our borough's all-time low in the league tables and its response to parent panic was making the learning experience at even the very good schools rigid and SATs-centred. We do have some well-regarded state schools locally but know that they are achieving their above-average results at least in part by steering very bright children firmly towards boosting their KS1 and 2 ratings :( That sounds fun :(
I've got no idea if ds or dd are "G & T" - they are certainly bright. I will rely on the school to take this forward if it proves necessary and be guided by them.
Some children at ds' school do have IEPs for areas of excellence (maths I think in ds' class) and I know from speaking to the child's parents that G & T may be an annoying label, but it covers real learning issues that every affected child deserves to have addressed. I would have thought all of us with an interest in children's education would welcome this topic and be able to understand why it is here :(
As Frogs has said and pph implies in her quote, it is much, much easier for it to happen in the private sector and I just wish it was working to better effect for all children in the UK.

haven't read all the posts, so may be repeating. In our school we HAVE to have a G&T register, to put about 20% of the children on. This is across all curriculum areas. So G&T is relative to the pupils in a class, and doesn't necessarily mean truely gifted or talented children but rather the top % in a curriculum area.

In practise, a truely G&T child should have the areas recognised and an IEP drawn up to further his/her education to suit them. This is then incorporated into the lesson by the way of how teachers differentiate, and the provisions they make for them in class. For the more able in literacy and numeracy in our school, there is an extra teacher who takes them out of class for 1 lesson a week (alternating numeracy and literacy weekly so the same children are not missing class lessons every week)

I agree that there are vast differences in ability in primary school anyway - certainly in the infants section where there can practically be 12 months between the oldest and youngest and at age 4, 5, 6, 7 that is a massive difference. I think it makes more sense to have a proper programme in place further up the school and in secondary school.

That is my gut feeling FIS. I think our School put an IEP in place for the specific child because that individual had an outstanding talent but was struggling in many other areas, and can see why they did it. Generally the ethos of the school is inclusive and with small classes, children of a wide range of abilities can be more easily taught appropriately without the need for frequent use of the G & T programme.
Ds and his best friend currently have a massive gulf between them re reading ability, I think, but are neither of them conscious of it and both love school and each other's company. We like it that way and we like that their classmate who needs the extra input is getting it. But at this age it's not usually necessary and needs to be handled especially carefully, IMO.

OldieMum, as I implied in my earlier post I would not be keen on my children being moved up a year. I knew quite a few people who stayed a year ahead through school, went to university at 17 and then messed up. (The "unsuitable man" sensors of many girls in that position seemed quite undeveloped, and there were often motivational issues as well.) I'd therefore not be too keen on your local state primary school. Private schools also quite often move children up a year. I'd worry about one with a reputation as an uncaring academic hothouse.

If I were you I'd have a good look at all options in your area, not necessarily those most highly regarded. Are there any other state primary schools in your area that have different policies? Or a nice private school like the one Marina describes?

puff - interesting about the music. I'm surprised schools don't teach musical notation routinely any more. It's easier to read than text, after all - no funny exceptions or notes that you don't play like they're written!

figroll, I had to laugh about the algebra. DS1 told me there was an algebra question on a practice paper and the class were told to do it by trial and error!

oldiemum - just interested to know which the girls' school is - you wouldn't be in manchester by any chance? Only asking as I went to a school which sounds very similar, and yes it was a total hot-house with very few opportunities to find other areas we were interested in other than music - i suppose it has probably changed a lot since then though...

I guess it's true that the private sector isn't going to be as shackled by the demands of league tables and national initiatives - but (still thinking about OldieMum and her choices) I still do think it has to come down to individual schools and individual teachers, whether state or private, and how they deal with/are prepared to deal with children outside the norm.

Our school is a private one, so yes perhaps they've found it easier to do the individualised arrangements for my two - but the school doesn't have anything like the experience a state school would about the range of children's abilities. Our school deals with a cosy little cohort of generally well-behaved, well-disposed kids and re ds especially they have made it clear that if I were not there to guide them they would have decided they could not deal with him. Which I think would not be the case at a state school.

I completely agree marina about a lot of good state sector schools having become very "SAT centred", not all, but those I have visited as a teacher (usually those with beacon status) were cetainly following this line. It leaves little room for discoveries as I described.

So far, ds1 (reception) is doing really well in school, working at a level I would expect from a Year 2 child, but we do the bare minimum that is related to his school curriculum at home, because I feel it's our job to encourage the things he is enthusiastic about which I know through time pressure/curriculum restrictions are not explored much at school.

Hallgerda, there is some focus on formal notation in KS2, but music, like many other subjects just doesn't get much focus because of the drive on maths, literacy and to a lesse extent science.

supakids' post sums up the state school attitude, in nice contrast to my quote from pph's post. A lot of more able kids in state schools are made to feel like freaks, and their parents like mad pushy parents. In most cases, apart from the very few Ruth Lawrence types, the children affected are not freaks, just academically able children who need to be challenged and kept interested.

Successful private schools seem to be able to do this within mainstream classes, even for the top 1% and above -- most state schools, certainly at primary level, don't. As I said below, an hour a week of extra provision is really not going to make a tremendous difference to a child who is bored for the other 28 hours a week they spend in school.