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Gifted and talented

Talk to other parents about parenting a gifted child on this forum.

What is your experience of G and T in primary school?

115 replies

ProfessorGrammaticus · 16/05/2006 14:36

My DS1 has been marked by the school as G and T. This was not at my request - it seems to be in an effort to get access to extra resources for him. The teacher who has his class (yr2) does not seem too sure what difference this will make in practice. I wondered what other primary schools did?

I know DS1 will not want a big song and dance made (nor would I) but on the other hand, he is beginning to get bored in lessons and I would not want this to continue.
I would like to know what experience others have had and am crossing my fingers for a constructive and maybe even supportive thread Smile

OP posts:
silverbirch · 17/05/2006 14:27

As far as I know dd’s state primary school doesn’t use the G&T label – but I have to say they have been very good at encouraging the children’s various strengths at KS1. My dd goes up a year for literacy and numeracy but spends the rest of her time with her age group – this flexible system seems to work well. The school have never insisted on her reading the reading scheme books – they assessed her as reading at the level of a yr 6 child in reception and have just encouraged her to read and read and read. She is well motivated and wants to learn and likes to follow up things she has learnt at school when she gets home and the school has encouraged this. The challenge is going to be to maintain this love of learning if the curriculum becomes more rigid further up the school system.

Piffle · 17/05/2006 14:34

I have to say I have issues with every school having to put their top 20% on a G+T register
That seems to defeat the object rather.
If a school for example had 10 students all of whom were below national curriculum expected ability or borerline achieving expected minimum standards would that mean that 2 of those would be added to the G+T register?
Seems to be a better plan that the ability is recognised first and then the children are added IYSWIM.
How is it actually done at primary level now?

figroll · 17/05/2006 16:59

I never really wanted to be assigned a label (ie, g and t), but I think she has been labelled.

However, the one thing that I have always considered is that if they taught my dd up to level 6 in maths, what would she do when she got to secondary school? What would the knock on effect be? If she had gone up a class, she wouldn't have been with her friends and I want her to enjoy school and feel like a normal child - not an oddity. I also don't want her to think that she is a brilliant person who is just a cut above the rest - that is just crap. I want her to feel like another normal member of the school community - which by the way, she most definitely is. There is nothing special about her - she is just a little girl who is good at maths and English. I think we need to bear this in mind because this is probably what pisses people off so much - "they think their child is more special than ours" - every child is very special.

However, it is nice to be able to come clean and talk about it for once!!!

GDG · 17/05/2006 17:45

Agree with Piffle re looking for 20% to put on G&T.

Also, I'm just thinking - there seems to be so many of us on MN who either have children identified as G&T or are at least clearly very bright (from the top of my head there are 3 of us just on this thread with reception children working at Yr2 level) - so are they really truly 'gifted and talented' or just at the very top end of 'normal' for their age (for want of a better phrase, I hope you know what I mean)?

Ds1 (reception) is obviously very bright and I was told at parents evening he was way above where an average reception child would be in all areas - but I think he's 'just' bright iyswim, I don't think he's a 'genius'!!

OTOH, I agree that children working well ahead of the 'average' child in that year do need focusing on in some way. I can't remember who it was who said some people are having to fight to get appropriate work but that must be very frustrating.

Maybe it's just the term 'gifted and talented' that doesn't sound right to me - to me it means a 5 yr old at grade 8 piano or something!

Sorry, I'm probably not contributing anything to this thread - I'm just interested!

singersgirl · 17/05/2006 18:28

I agree, GDG - both about the 20% and about what use 'gifted and talented' really serves. In my son's case, though he is clearly a bright little boy, he is not off the scale and his interests are very much those of any 4 year old.

I think his teacher has been particularly struck by him because, if he had been born 4 hours later, he would not be in this school year at all. He started Reception reading at a Y2 level or beyond (which is why she mentioned the G&T stuff in the first place), able to order numbers to 100 and beyond and so on - but nothing truly 'shocking'.

There is a big difference between him and a 3 year old who understands square roots!

Bink · 17/05/2006 18:29

Very good point GDG - those terms do carry a swaggery sense just in themselves, don't they.

To the extent it uses anything, our school just says "able".

singersgirl · 17/05/2006 18:30

Sorry, by the way, didn't mean there wasn't a use for "G&T", just not sure that my son is outstanding enough to need it. Also not sure that the provision has materialised, as he is still doing things in class he could easily have done in September when he started.

NotAnOtter · 17/05/2006 18:31

do they actually act on it? Not in our school -label and leave!

grumpyfrumpy · 17/05/2006 18:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

puff · 17/05/2006 19:15

I haven't been teaching for a few years, so didn't know about this top 20% being on the G&T register. Completely barmy!

Also, if children are identified as G&T based on say their reading ability, that's tricky IMO, because many early, able readers level out later - they just happen to crack the code earlier than others.

I think it's perhaps a little different with say maths. I had another child in another class who I considered to be gifted mathematically - in early year 2, she was finding Y6 work easy and had a particular gift for algebra. It is difficult to ensure these children are appropriately challenged and stimulated when there are 30 others all of whom need your attention too. She did attend some Y6 extension maths lessons (accompanied by the teaching assistant she knew really well), but this then meant we lost that TA for those lessons, who would normally be spending focused time with 6 children, teaching them a new concept for instance.

I do think the NAGC is worth contacting, they do some good work, the annual membership is about £30.

OldieMum · 17/05/2006 19:27

The school I was referring to is in Oxford. I have heard good and bad things about it. There are some other good private schools in Oxford, however, some of which may not be so pressured.

The problem with other state schools nearby is that they are mostly good and oversubscribed, or not so good. We are just at the beginning of sorting out where, other than the school I referred to earlier (for which we are in the catchment area) we would have a realistic chance of getting her in.

chapsmum · 17/05/2006 19:29

thought this was about ginBlush

OldieMum · 17/05/2006 19:31

My mother avoided the 'unsuitable man' problem by starting at uni in September 1939, by the way ...

There weren't any after the first few months!

GDG · 17/05/2006 19:48

i agree wtih you there about reading puff - I'm not a teacher but just from what I've seen.

roisin · 17/05/2006 20:13

Our primary school is fab. G&T co-ordinator and HT have recently both completed post-grad qualifications on G&T provision, and are passionate about it. All staff, incl support staff, have had training in critical skills and philosophy for children. The basic approach is every lesson is delivered in ways that enable all children to access it at an appropriate level for them, including the opportunity for more able children to practice higher level thinking skills.

I could bang on for ages about how fab they are, but don't want to make you all envious Grin

Bink · 17/05/2006 20:21

roisin, it was your school I was thinking of when I was trying to say that private schools aren't necessarily the way to go here ...

Envy Envy Envy

singersgirl · 17/05/2006 20:47

Roisin, your school really does sound fab - I have read about your experiences before.

As far as reading levelling out is concerned, it's true that not all children have their spurts and plateaus at the same time, so by Y3 or 4 children of roughly the same ability are reading at roughly the same level - ie the able children will probably be reading 4-5 years beyond their age, or more in some cases. But (in my experience of listening to readers) the really fluent, expressive early readers have continued to be advanced readers.

Somebody told me that there are different sections for the G&T register, so a child can be on for maths or for reading or for music. But in fact reading is the easiest thing to provide for in terms of differentiation.

dinosaure · 17/05/2006 20:52

I do agree with those of you who have said that you think your children are bright, but not necessarily truly "gifted" - that's very much how I feel about my DS1 and DS2. They've both been put in the "G&T" bracket at school, DS1 for numeracy and DS2 for literacy and numeracy. I can tell that they are clever, but I very very much doubt that they are really exceptional.

OldieMum · 17/05/2006 20:56

But it sounds as though the G&T category is just a relative term, used to differentiate the top 15%, in order to direct resources at them.

silverbirch · 17/05/2006 20:58

GDG said "so are they really truly 'gifted and talented' or just at the very top end of 'normal' for their age (for want of a better phrase, I hope you know what I mean)? "

I agree with you - that they are at the top end of normal for their age. I had a lot of friends at uni
who were bored at school because they were not challenged - and we are certainly not all genius material! I think the G&T label is unfortunate but the principal, that there should be provision made for the more able children too – is probably a good one.

dinosaure · 17/05/2006 20:59

Well, exactly oldiemum, I think that's precisely what it is. It's just a bit of a shame that they have to create this "G&T" bracket, which is very divisive, in order to give the brighter children work which is sufficiently stretching.

silverbirch · 17/05/2006 21:00

Sorry dinosaure - I didn't see your post - I was busy editing mine - I've repeated some of what you said...

doddle · 18/05/2006 00:27

I'm not saying that I agree with this, but this is the way that G & T is defined within the state sector. I was a G & T coordinator, and this is the explanation from the LEA link advisor. I sit on the other side of the argument too, as DS1 and DS2 are both on the G & T register. As Dinosaure says of her children, with DS2 I know he is very bright but he is not what I would personally define as gifted, DS1 is gifted.

Using the government definitions, Gifted and Talented falls strictly into two camps, that together make up the 15%.

Gifted being academically able, the top 10% of the environment the child is in.

Talented being the 5% who excel in a non academic area.

So in an average class of 30, a teacher would be expected to identify 3 particularly academically able and 1-2 talented children. Parent, teacher and peer nomination are supposed to be equally valid in the identification of G & T children.

'Gifted' is the term used to describe children who are working 1-2 years above their peer group. The term used by our LEA advisor, but not within schools, for children who are working 4 or more years above their peer group (and these are the children who I would consider academically gifted) is 'savant'.

Schools also do not like the label G & T but it is something we have to work with and that we have pressure put upon us to show that we are doing.

We had an apalling G&T coordinator before christmas who insisted on labelling activities as G&T reading etc. They're now called workshops, so we've had PE and Art workshops so far this half term.

It's not just additional groups though, the G&T label actually forces some teachers to think slightly harder. G&T is not just a case of setting more challenging work or assuming that a child's needs are being met by an hour a week group. Teachers (and I am one) need to recognise that there are other factors to take into account. Unfortunately, there is still a sector of the profession that seem to believe that neat handwriting, good presentation and a page of sums are a pre-requisite before they will go further with a child. Whereas a bright child will have understood the concept before they've left the carpet and not actually need to do the reinforcement activity. Or teachers that do not realise that poor handwriting and a reluctance to write often go hand in hand with academic ability. I spent three months last year trying to explain to the guy who was teaching literacy to DS1 that the reason why he had not even bothered to write the date for 3 months was boredom. The school moved him to a different group, with a teacher with a different style and he flourished.

The school deal with my children in different ways, that work for them as individuals (it helps that I work there too now!). They both have IEPs, DS1's is for G&T and Eccentricity!! DS2 spends the morning in Year 1 and returns to Reception for the afternoon, which works for him. DS1 who is in Year 2 and is working at and beyond Year 6 level, in most areas, stays in year 2 for most things but has a fantastic teacher who is flexible and creative enough to keep him involved, interested and learning. He does come up to year 5 sometimes to do maths with my group, as he is not mature enough emotionally to cope with year 6, and having Mum there helps!! We are about to have talks with the local secondary school about support for him because within 2 years he'll have outstripped me mathematically and I'm the numeracy coordinator!!

As a classteacher, I feel that the G&T label, which some of my class have, makes no difference, because I don't give my class mundane activities. I differentiate for all the children whatever their needs. I don't need the label to say that x, y and z need to take the work on further, or work from the year above's syllabus, or solve a challenge. I very rarely have children tell me they are bored, and when they do we sort it out, we sit down and talk. I've attended a lot of G&T training, and it helps raise the level of learning for all the children in the class. As a teacher if you're really stretching and challenging the most able then it begins to have knock on effect on all the children.

So I think to sum up a long and rambly post, parents hate the label, schools hate the label, we have to work with it, but if you're a good teacher, (or your child has a good teacher), it should make no difference whether children are labelled or not because what you're asking children to do should be appropriate and challenging for them anyway.

I'm really sorry this is so long, but it's a subject close to my heart!!

grumpyfrumpy · 18/05/2006 07:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Marina · 18/05/2006 09:54

That is such a good post doddle, thank you for sharing that insight :)

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