What is your experience of G and T in primary school?

[ProfessorGrammaticus]

My DS1 has been marked by the school as G and T. This was not at my request - it seems to be in an effort to get access to extra resources for him. The teacher who has his class (yr2) does not seem too sure what difference this will make in practice. I wondered what other primary schools did?

I know DS1 will not want a big song and dance made (nor would I) but on the other hand, he is beginning to get bored in lessons and I would not want this to continue.
I would like to know what experience others have had and am crossing my fingers for a constructive and maybe even supportive thread

Ahhh yes. I recall the exact same issues at that age level with ds. He was bored as well and the teacher tended to pop the G+T kids up a year in some classes - depending on where their strengths laid.
Given that the schools appeared to have limited resources at primary level, we took matters into our own hands a little. Gave him a few outside interests at different stages - guitar karate kumon maths stagecoach which would keep him stimualated outside school and let him coast at school. Did read him/supply him with books to read a lot as well.DS is now 12 and is better catered for at secondary level I think.
Perhaps things have moved on a little in the last 6 years in this area?

Gin & Tonic's in Primary school?! - the teachers or the pupils?

Northerener, I can't help thinking that everytie I see the abbreviation mentioned. What were they thinking when they came up with "gifted and talented" as a description? :o

At my children's school they only do G & T for maths so far. Dd1, Y2, is on the register and I am very pleased with the provision. They have done some testing with the G & T children and identified their strenghts and weaknesses. They all have their individual targets and are given tailored work. In dd1's case the teacher also often asks her to explain more complex stuff to the class as she's apparently very good at coming up with straightforward explanations for mathematical problems. Dd1 is unaware of being on the G & T register, I think all she knows is that she is 'good at maths'.

The school my children attend is very small (80 in roll) and not your average village school as over half the pupil population is very transient US military, they just seem to be able to cope with every situation really and make the best of it - they only have 3 classes so there's always the work of the year above to do if year-appropriate work is too easy. She also has access to lots of reference books (both at school and at home) and loves maths workbooks, PC games etc.

Unfortunately they don't do G & T for literacy yet and dd1 is quite bored with it. She complains about not getting enough words to practice for her spelling test, that kind of thing. She spends a lot of time writing stories, looking words up in the dictionary etc though so she seems to be happy to do the extra input herself.

I have another dd at the opposite end of the spectrum in YR - she has a learning disability and can't talk but is just as well catered for at school.

At our kids' primary they start G&T in year 3, but the school is half-hearted about it. They pick about 15% of the class and they have a separate project, but often weeks go by with no meetings or progress. They never move children up into other classes.

HI 'THOSE PARENTS WITH GIFTED CHILDREN...'
This is a major problem for all of us. We have a daughter iq 175-200 3 Siblings could be similar,
State schools try hard, and do best, but we feel our daughter might start to coast on onset.. do you feel the same??

G and T at dd's school involved sending out a letter about a Saturday school 25 miles away (dd was a year too young anyway), then worrying me by telling me she didn't really mix and they were worried she'd be the same at secondary school. She's now 12 and very happy because she's away from that place and with other able girls in grammar school.

G&T provision has been quite patchy at my children's primary school. When DS1 was in Reception, Year 1 and Year 2 there was a teacher responsible for G&T work who took little groups out of class to do activities like story writing. It had the advantage of removing him from the more tedious Year 1 work but I did wonder how beneficial it really was. She retired and was not replaced.

Mostly it's been down to the class teacher to keep my children constructively occupied, and some have done better than others. DS1's Year 5 teacher gave him his own little folder of difficult puzzles and some great challenges (he was asked to build a contraption that would get an egg safely down to the ground from a second-floor window). His Year 4 teacher on the other hand just whinged to me about his intellectual arrogance, and looked a little surprised when I asked whether he'd actually talked to my son about the matter [why no exasperated emoticon?]. The SENCO did suggest moving him up a year for literacy at the end of Reception, but I was not keen (understatement of the year - and I feel that way even more now DS1's been through the Year 6 SATs - it's bad enough once! Level 5 is really not that demanding for the brighter children and trying for Level 6 is not an option) and the idea was dropped.

The local council runs a Maths. enrichment scheme on Saturday mornings in the spring term for Year 5 pupils - DS1 took part in that and enjoyed it.

Bafreem - nice to see you back. I can understand your concern, but maybe a bit of coasting and daydreaming isn't entirely a bad thing (I should know - I did it myself for years ). I agree with what Piffle says about outside interests, and I'd add nature to the list (particularly good as it's free, one can never exhaust it and iirc you're in a rural area).

The school my dd attends hasn't done anything extra with her at all. She was given the opportunity to go to some maths school or other on a Saturday, but I felt that this should be in school time, not at the weekend. She has had a g and t activity which lasted a day and a half. The work has been easy at primary school.

I have tried to do little bits with her at home - I am pretty good at maths myself, so I taught her how to simplify equations, graphs and scatterplots, trigonometry, long division and multiplication and so on. She came home from her year 6 sats and said that there hadn't been any algebra or trigonometry in it at all!

I feel fairly relaxed about it but I think this is because I can help her myself and I am willing to do this. I feel for children whose parents can't do this or don't have the motivation. She also has lots of interests outside school - learning a musical instrument has been a real revelation to her because she has found that it is comes very easily to her.

My ds has been coasting this last year. I approached education authority to move him up a year after having a National association of gifted children assessment and also a psychologists report. The school was all for it but Ed dept said 'its simply not in our policy to fast track children, as we find they are either emotionally inadequate to deal with it or they level out in the end'. very frustrating and hands tied unless I want to pay private.

I have read these posts with mounting concern. DD is 3.4 and would be, we expect, a possible G&T child [yes, I know we all think our children are bright, but she does seem very bright and, in particular, loves numbers. She understands what prime and square numbers are, loves us telling her stories about the adventures of 'families' of prime numbers etc etc]. We are currently looking at primary schools. We visited the local state primary yesterday. OFSTED mention its good provision for G&T children. This seems to consist of a combination of moving them up a year and giving them some extra maths projects. I find this worrying, as I can't see that someone who is G&T in academic work is necessarily ready to spend the day with children a year older. I also worry what would happen in the final year of primary - would she repeat a year? Would she, as I did, get increasingly bored at the end of primary school? Also, from some of these posts, it seems that the only provision is in maths - but her language skills are also strong.

We could just about manage private school fees. In our city, there are several academically strong private schools, including one of the top girls schools in the UK in terms of public exam results. However, it has a reputation for being a hot-house, with not a great deal of pastoral care and a very competitive atmosphere. So all is not ideal there, either.

Given your experiences with G&T provision for your children, what would you do in our place? Any advice welcome. Thanks.

Oldie mum they continue through the schooling process and have the problem at the end of secondary school when they are not legally old enough to leave! I believe you can leave in the June of the exam year providing you have reached 16.

I really hope that these threads throw up some good practice - there must be some, somewhere! I heard recently that all schools should have a G&T Coordinator, and, crucially IMO, that person should NOT be the Special Needs Coordinator as well - this would eliminate the struggle on both sides for time and resources.

Wouldn't it be great to hear about a school which had a G&T Coordinator who actually knew what they were supposed to do, and were doing it?

here, here fauve

Supakids - this sounds dreadful. What would she do at 16? Go to uni? I hope not. My mother started at uni just after her 17th birthday (they did things differently in the 1930s!)and she thinks that she lost out socially in a big way. The age gap between her and the others was just too big.

DS2 (in Reception) has been flagged by his teacher as G&T and apparently she has spoken to the G&T co-ordinator about him, but as far as I can see all that has happened is that he is allowed to go to Y2 to choose reading books.

His teacher has given him some extension handwriting/spelling work to do at home if he wants, as his handwriting is not great (not 5 till August).

He has definitely been too young to go up a year for any lessons, and in any case I don't think the school like to take the child out of the class.

I will be watching Y1 with interest as I think it is then that the risk of boredom sets in - in Reception they spend loads of time playing, so a few minutes a day of easy work doesn't bother DS2.

Interesting to read everyone else's experiences higher up primary school.

OldieMum, my advice would be to pick your dd's school based on what is actually the usual sort of criteria - do you feel enthusiastic about the headteacher's style, do the children look happy and bouncy, is there lots of work on show, when you talk to the staff do they sound bright and keen to share ideas or do they sound defensive and toeing-a-line, etc. etc. Because very bright children vary hugely in what they need, and so what you want is a supportive, flexible, energised sort of place that is ready to work with you and her as individuals (including, especially, to take on board any ideas you have).

(Just to explain where I'm coming from: I have two brainboxes - one (dd) has been accelerated a year and that suits her just fine, because she's as forward emotionally as she is academically; the other (ds) is a real "educational challenge" - something of a problem, to be honest - and the school and I have to run a constant partnership in managing the gulf between his ability and his behaviour. It's the same school but they see they have to treat my two in totally different ways.)

Oldiemum, your dd sounds exactly like my ds, he was very very early on numbers, adding and subtracting, writing and doing number groups, like primes, squares and roots well before age 4. I recall him counting and subtracting stairs while I still had to hold his hand to get up stairs at age 18 mths....
He went to a failing school at first as I was single parent, they identified his exceptional maths ability in yr1 after reception teacher told me he was learning disabled as he would not join in number games with the others
He was very happy at the school FWIW and when we moved (in with my dp) he started a very high achieving primary with G+T provision, two yrs he got great teachers, one year (yr5) rubbish teacher - I pulled him out as he was so unhappy.
I think for going private, unless your local schools are REALLY dire, to stick with state primary and use funds for extra activities outside of school. Also then at secondary level look at private schooling or possibly yr 6 for entrance exams to good schools if dd is still exceptional.
WE were told by an ed psych to get ds into a private/highly academic or small teacher ratio secondary school - we oculd not afford it, so we moved to be near a top grammar school. He loves it and is truly stretched there for the first time in his life.
They are only kids for a little while, they will stay bright if you as a parent keep stimulating them. I must say now I am glad my dp has a physics degree as ds's questions now, border on repulsive in their complexity!

Oldiemum, read PPH's comment on the other thread regarding the difference between private/state school attitudes to brighter children, because I think she's spot on. Oh what the heck, I'll just cut and paste it:

"Well in the private sector clever children are called "clever" and put in the scholarship class and get a scholarship or two and an extra A level in the end. And then go to Oxbridge.

Seems a much more sensible way of dealing with it.

Don't need a whole topic for that, really"

This is v. much a private educator's take on things, but highlights the difference between a sensible, matter-of-fact attitude to the fact that more academic children need to be kept productively occupied and challenged, and the complicatedly ambivalent attitude towards brighter kids that seems to be common in state schools.

I think the reason the subject of G&T (and it is a cringeworthy term) comes up so often on here is that the National Curriculum, certainly the way it is interpreted in most state schools, meets the needs of the children in the middle 70% of the ability range (with varying degrees of efficacy, depending on the school) but doesn't really address the needs of the top or bottom 15%.

This is not something that a bolt-on hour a week of G&T provision is really going to address. The principal objective of most primary schools is to get as many kids as possible to Level 4 by the Year 6 SATs. This is not a demanding target for a bright child, and even the higher Level 5 will not constitute a real challenge for a very able child (top 5% or so). Schools do vary in how well they address the needs of the most naturally academic children, but even in a school with very good provision it's unlikely to be a priority.

Mmmm, thanks everyone. This is reinforcing my initial prejudice that the G and T scheme does not seem to have much substance! As you say, figroll, I can and will help at home and also provide other activities. But I thought the point of the scheme was to enable the brighter ones to be stretched IN school. I had hoped for something like the group work Hallgerda describes, to limit the "coasting". Ho hum!

As for others, what has happened so far is that he has been given a book of maths problems to work through at home and also been allowed to select library boohs from the junior school section (he's now in the last term of yr 2).

I have no idea if our school has G&T provision at all and I'm not entirely sure why the child has to be labelled as such - do they really need special attention or can they not just be given appropriate levels of work, or even moved on a year as I know happened years ago. This is a genuine question btw, not a dig, I just don't know the answer.

Singersgirl - was interested to hear that your ds has been identified as possibly G&T. Ds1 is in reception too, he is just turned 5 and is also on year 2 reading books. He isn't even finding them hard - he brought home a new one last night and just read it, no help. I have no idea whether this means he is 'G&T' or not - there are certainly a couple of others in his class in the same position. Tbh, while teh books he has atm are not overly challenging, I wouldn't push for anything different as he is enjoying being able to read them, talk about the story etc. He even puts the correct emphasis in his voice for speech, questions etc. He is confident about his reading and I'd be wary of pushing too hard and knocking that confidence.

Bit of a ramble there, not sure what I'm trying to say. I don't know if ds is G&T - perhaps not as he doesn't seem to be bored with what he is doing even though it's not difficult for him.

I find they always forget the lemon

I don't like labels either but my personal opinion is that early readers just need more challenging books rather than put on some G&T thingy. Both mine were early fluent readers and the school just gave them more challenging books. I think it can be quite a challenge in itself because you don't want stories with a 'too mature' topic. My suggestion would be to broaden his reading with non-fiction books - usborne do a fantastic range of non-fiction read yourself books (can't remember the range but has titles like Castles, Ballet, Night Animals).

The G&T at our school is applied to those who are exceptional in all areas of work. Our primary school puts children together in groups (in their class) largely based on their ability anyway so e.g. each group will get 5 spellings but the red group's words will be significantly harder than the blue group.

GDG - in answer to your question "can they not be given appropriate levels of work" I think you will find that this depends on the school. There are some posters on here whose children seem to be well-served by their schools but they are outweighed by those who have to beg (repeatedly) for extension work until in the end they give up and resign themselves to sorting it out themselves. Frogs is absolutely correct in that most schools aim for Level 4, especially those with huge ability ranges, and the brighter ones lose out as a result.