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Wakefield found guilty by the GMC

255 replies

manfrom · 28/01/2010 15:34

Finally the GMC stands up and takes the right decision:

www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/jan/28/mmr-doctor-fail-children-gmc

Apparently there was heckling in court.

"One woman shouted: "These doctors have not failed our children. You are outrageous." She called the panel of experts "bastards" and accused the GMC of being a "kangaroo court". Another shouted: "This is a set-up."

So obviously they believe it's the right thing to do to falsify data and pay parents for blood samples at a kiddies birthday party....

[dons hat and flak jacket]

OP posts:
LindenAvery · 18/02/2010 16:34

Silver frog - I did not mean to belittle your DD. I do not know you or how you feel. I apologise if my comments caused hurt - I am just trying to make a point about 'categorising' individuals. Some individuals I know well would be thought of as strange because their thought processes are a little unusual such as 'seeing' numbers as colours or using music to memorise people, thoughts and periods of time.

Beachcomber · 18/02/2010 16:36

There was (another) study done recently in the US which shows (again) that increased diagnosis does not even come close to explaining the increase. There is a real and concerning increase in neuropsychiatric disorders which must be environmentally triggered.

www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/134717.php

I'm not sure if you can read the study itself online.

LindenAvery · 19/02/2010 11:47

Beachcomber - so why isn't more being done to investigate whether the decline in exclusive breastfeeding coupled with the huge formula market is not the cause behind autism?

Especially as we are concerned here with a baby's immune system, inflammatory pathways, essential fatty acids, the role of milk protein in autism etc.

Is it because the only studies done are by formula companies who want to prove the benefits of adding DHA to formula? So that you go out and buy their product?

Formula behind autism - now that would be conspiracy on a grand scale - after all medicines have studies done all the time and are used to controversy. But formula? We are getting into causing widespread guilt to any mother who didn't breastfeed so maybe that is the reason no large scale study will be done. Plus who would fund such a study? It would have to come from a public health/ government source - you can just imagine the participants who would want to prevent such a study from happening.

mso · 19/02/2010 13:02

Wakefield 'resigns' from thoughtful house. excellent.

scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/02/andrew_wakefield_resigned_from_thoughtfu.php#more

probono · 19/02/2010 13:04

any luck finding those surveys mso? the ones that don't exist?

mso · 19/02/2010 13:11

the cochrane review i posted contains several epidemiological studies that compared autism rates in vaccinated Vs not vaccinated individuals. i've no idea why you can't find them. i posted one earlier in the thread (though you have to copy and paste the link into your browser for it to work, i forgot the thing).

How about a single piece of credible evidence linking vaccination with autism? because i know for sure that doesn't exist.

anyho, i really do have better things to do, like trying to move house. so it's been fun folks, but bye. do keep trying to dissuade people from protecting their children against childhood diseases, won't you.

probono · 19/02/2010 13:21

no it's the ones that compare a vaccinated population with a wholly unvaccinated population

"several huge trials involving millions of children which have compared vaccinated children with unvaccinated children and found no difference in autism rates."

Beachcomber · 19/02/2010 16:58

LindenAvery interesting post about formula. I suppose it isn't being investigated because high rates of formula feeding have been around for a lot longer than high rates of autism.

The science which has examined what is actually going on biologically with the subgroup of autistic children identified by Wakefield makes vaccines the most logical route of investigation.

This subgroup when clinically examined show that they have been exposed to mercury, measles virus and an immunological challenge (and that they have not dealt well with these exposures). The bowel problems that they present are different to anything documented before but are consistent with what is known about a genetic disposition colliding with a viral infection.

When I see the words; viral, measles, mercury and immunological challenge I think of vaccines I don't think of formula or anything else.

Add to that the fact that most of these children had adverse reactions to a vaccine at the time of administration and that their parents observed the development of their illness following vaccination.

Remember that neither Dr Wakefield or anybody else is suggesting that vaccines are a trigger for all or even a majority of autism cases.

What is being suggested is that the small subgroup of children who reacted badly to MMR and who, when clinically examined, show an impaired ability process mercury (which is not in the MMR but is in vaccines given previously), who are shown to carry heavy body burdens of mercury, have high titers to measles virus (but not other viruses), have bowel problems consistent with a viral cause and indeed have persistent vaccine strain measles infection in their diseased bowel are most likely suffering from a vaccine induced condition to which they are genetically disposed.

In addition there are similarities in their condition and a condition called 'disintegrative psychosis'. Disintegrative psychosis is a known consequence of measles encephalitis in which previously normally developing children develop bowel problems, behavioural problems and regress developmentally. Sound familiar?

Pixel · 19/02/2010 18:40

Re: formula. I have dd who refused to breastfeed, therefore formula fed and just fine. I also have ds who was breastfed for 3.5 years, never had formula in his life and is severely autistic.

Just in case it is relevant! (I can't keep up with the science stuff, although I am reading with interest. )

Beachcomber · 19/02/2010 18:42

There is an increasing body of evidence which confirms the eye witness accounts of thousands of parents that their children are suffering from a vaccine reaction.

There is no one study for the moment that can be cited as linking vaccines and autism on its own. That is because we are talking about a biologically complex condition which affects many pathways, mechanisms and processes. A condition which affects the intestine, the immune system and the brain in interacting and complex ways.

What we do have is hundreds of studies which examine parts of what is a giant biological puzzle. These studies work together to build up a picture of what is happening to the children examined. This is how science is done normally; small pieces of a puzzle are examined, identified and fitted together.

The primate study could prove to be pretty inconclusive on its own but we don't have all the results yet.

The following links are to some of the studies which are part of the giant puzzle. Some of the others are here and here.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10759242

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12145534

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9756729

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12849883

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11950955

This is a brief outline of the main findings (at the time of writing) from Dr Wakefield

Beachcomber · 19/02/2010 18:49

Oops 'conclusive' obviously. It's been a long day...

Beachcomber · 19/02/2010 20:18

Forgot to post this document which is a (long!) but interesting read.

It is a report by the Subcommittee on Human Rights and Wellness Committee on Government Reform it was presented to the United States House of Representatives by Chairman Dan Burton in 2003.

mso · 19/02/2010 21:08

on the other hand, we know for sure that measles causes encephalitis and death. tell me, as anyone died of autism recently?

one side, vague, unproven and probably absent link which is undetectable in epidemiological studies so even in the tiny, tiny chance that mmr causes autism in some individuals it's still more sensible to vaccinate. I don't know about you but i would prefer an autistic child to a dead one.

the other hand, proven, quantifiable risk of disease, blindness, death and brain damage. I see lots of people blinded in one eye by measles in my job. it's a bugger when they loose the sight in the other eye through age related disease and i would love to see you explain to them why vaccination is a bad thing.

children will die if they follow your advice. in fact, they already have. I would also love to see you explain to the parents of those children who needed herd immunity why you think vaccination is a bad idea.

fortunately, even with the drop in vaccination rates because of idiots like you 80%+ of people realise it's bollocks and vaccinate their children. you're a shouty minority but a tiny one.

now i'm really off...

Beachcomber · 19/02/2010 21:55

Mso I'm not giving anyone any advice. I'm having a discussion about a very rare but very distressing side effect of vaccination which presents in a small subgroup. A side effect that could be screened for so that at risk children would not have their lives and health destroyed in the name of the greater good.

Measles being dangerous does not make MMR safe. Measles being dangerous does not make autistic children not matter, as you imply.

The choice is not between an autistic child and a dead child. To make out that it is is ridiculously unscientific and sensationalistic.

As far as I'm aware there is a perfectly good measles vaccine which protects against measles, and its potentially serious consequences, which has a much better safety record than the MMR.

Oh and I am the parent of two children who depend to a degree on herd immunity because they cannot be vaccinated against measles. I do not wish a single child to be put at risk of developing autism in order for my children to be protected from measles. I would be a terribly sick and selfish person if I did. My children do not matter more than other people's children.

Do not address any more posts to me personally. I find your personal attacks, unpleasant and aggressive manner and callous remarks about autistic children and their parents offensive, tedious and time wasting [heard it all befuckingfore emoticon].

I was particularly (sick face) by the post in which you addressed Pagwatch.

probono · 20/02/2010 16:56

Thanks for all those links, Beach.

What an appalling post from mso.

Pixel · 20/02/2010 19:53

Yes and the 'anti-vax cranks' jibe would be funny if it wasn't so tragic. MSO completely misses the point that most of us trotted off like good little lambs to have our babies vaccinated without a thought. The only reason we have doubts now is because our children were damaged following vaccination.

Besides, I rarely see anyone here saying that vaccination is wrong, just that it's wrong for some children (you know, the ones that don't matter in the grand scheme of things). The pro-vax cranks just can't seem to get that.

Pixel · 20/02/2010 19:54

Oops that was meant to be ^following vaccination^.

mso · 21/02/2010 22:39

sigh

studies comparing aspects of health vaccinated Vs. non vaccinated children:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16945457

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17400342

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15889991

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19146903?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_R VDocSum&ordinalpos=1

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19146903?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_R VDocSum&ordinalpos=1

of course the real thing beachcomber and the anti vaxx crowd get wrong is that the whole point of science is that you change your opinion when you are proven wrong. however, nothing is going to change the minds of those on here entrenched in their antivacination viws. it's not a considered opinion, it's a belief supported only by cherry picking the flimsiest pieces of information and steadfastly ignoring the landslide of evidence proving them wrong.

mso · 21/02/2010 22:42

sorry, that last link should have been this one:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16091572?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_R VDocSum&ordinalpos=65

mso · 21/02/2010 22:46

though of course those studies obviously don't exist either.

and neither do these:

pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/109/1/124

adc.bmj.com/content/88/3/222.abstract?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=bacterial+in fections%252C+immune+overload&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&reso urcetype=HWCIT

Beachcomber · 22/02/2010 09:39

I just was thinking last night that one of the most obvious reasons why it is considered biological plausible that MMR is linked to autism, and worthy of through investigation, is the following;

Atypical exposure to wild measles, mumps, rubella (and chicken pox) have been shown to be associated with regressive autism in nature. Children who are exposed to two of these infections within a close temporal period, at a time of immune system and brain development, are at higher risk for developing autism.

Close temporal measles and mumps infection are associated with development of IBS, ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease.

So we have seen that children exposed to two of the above viral infections are at risk for developing both autism and bowel disease. Vaccination with a live combined vaccine does exactly that, it exposes children to three of the above viruses at the same time. The timing of vaccination is clearly within a period of immune system and brain development.

Interestingly if we look at the history of the MMR we also have clear evidence that packaging three vaccines in one vial is not the same as giving those vaccines as singles.

When the MMR was first introduced to the UK three vaccines were licensed. Two of those vaccines contained the Urabe mumps strain.

Despite the fact that use of Urabe strain MMRs had led to unacceptably high rates of meningitis in Canada which led to the vaccines being withdrawn, the vaccines were introduced to the UK. I guess UK officials thought that they would give the vaccines a second chance and see if UK kids were more resistant to developing meningitis than Canadian kids. They weren't. The same thing happened in Japan. The vaccines were (eventually) withdrawn (and offloaded onto developing countries because no-one in Europe would touch them with a bargepole anymore).

It was at this point, before anyone had heard of Dr Wakefield, that public confidence in the MMR faltered and vaccination rates dropped. It was at this point that the UK government put all their eggs in one basket and went all out for the third remaining vaccine the MMRII. Single vaccines were discouraged and later made unavailable.

What is interesting about this story is that the Urabe mumps strain was used in the single mumps vaccine with no significant problems. However when it came to making the triple vaccine, the dose of mumps virus had to be increased, as the dose used in the single vaccine did not stimulate an immune response when the vaccine was combined with the measles and rubella elements. This is clear evidence that there is biological interaction of the elements of combined viral vaccines. (Something Dr Paul Offit would have us believe does not happen. Mind you the rota virus vaccine he developed had to be withdrawn so I'm not too sure that he knows what he is talking about).

Many of the participants of the UK litigation were given the Urabe strain MMR. It is impossible to maintain the official line that 'MMR is safe' when talking about children who were given a vaccine which has been withdrawn in several countries for being repeatedly shown as highly reactive and having caused several deaths.

Martin Walker has written a thorough (long!) essay on the Urabe tale.

Dr Wakefield on viral exposure, autism and bowel disease

Dr Wakefield on positive rechallenge of measles containing vaccines and bowel and neuropsychiatric symptoms

(Positive rechallenge is considered to be very solid scientific evidence of a phenomenon. A patient shows return of or worsening of symptoms when rexposed to an agent suspected of causing initial symptoms).

I happen to think that in the face of the above it is utterly incomprehensible that the government is continuing to withhold single vaccines (whilst having the gall to complain about measles vaccination rates and the dangers of measles).

Seems to me that about 95% of this controversy is about measles. No child actually needs the MMR. Children's health could be better, more safely and more judiciously safeguarded by the use of single vaccines. Most children need neither mumps nor rubella vaccines and unnecessarily exposing them to a combined vaccine, with a very bad safety record, they do not need, is madness unethical.

Some news on what the indomitable Dr Wakefield is going to do next. I know thare are a lot of parents who would fully understand if Dr Wakefield chose to walk away from this whole sorry mess. We would much rather support him in his next project though.

paisleyleaf · 22/02/2010 10:16

I agreed with the Autism Coordinating Committee woman, who also has a daughter with autism, (and whose name escapes me) who resigned from Autism Speaks and said
"There isn't an unlimited pot of money, and every dollar spent looking where we know the answer isn't is one less dollar we have to spend where we might find new answers,"

I'd really like research to be able to move on now, and really invest in looking into other areas.

Beachcomber · 22/02/2010 13:48

Yet another paper demonstrating an association between persistent measles infection and inflammatory bowel disease in children with developmental disorder.

jcp.bmjjournals.com/content/suppl/2002/02/07/55.1.DC1/1_0181.pdf

There is a group of children who have persistent measles infection in their inflamed intestines. These children also have developmental disorders. These children were fine up until the moment they received a measles containing vaccine. We know that measles can cause intestinal problems. We know that measles can cause brain damage and developmental regression.

What other areas exactly do folks think it would be better to examine in the case of these children than that of their persistent measles infection and the manner in which they were exposed to the virus??

No-one is claiming this is the case for all autistic children.

Very little money has been spent on examining these children or investigating Wakefield's hypothesis. (A lot of money has been spent on exonerating MMR from ever having damaged a child ever and on disproving hypothesise that Wakefield has never made).

I'm not sure how a scientist would go about researching the 'coincidence' theory that is the only alternative hypothesis we have to go on at the moment.

mso · 22/02/2010 15:35

Oh look, it's by the discredited Andrew Wakefield. what a surprise.

and they isolated the measles sequence using the same PCR method which gave the false positive results in the withdrawn 1996 paper. not very convincing.

even less so when you find this paper from the following year:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1187331/

where they seem to explain that they incorrectly classified some of the controls and actually added 4 more controls after the fact. this is seriously dodgy practice.

have you got any evidence for a link that hasn't been produced by a doctor who is about to be struck off for misconduct? or is Saint Andy your only source?

As an aside, even if this paper's results are correct, surely this is a reason to vaccinate (presumably with the most reliable method of protection, I.E. MMR? (excluding Saint Andy's patented wondersupervaccine))

iceagethree · 22/02/2010 15:37

"hilarious"