OK I need to grasp this nettle.

[OrmIrian]

I drink too much too often. Have always liked a glass of wine but in the last 18m it has got too much.

So as a starting point I am giving up booze until my birthday on 6th Feb. If I make it that far I will see if I can go back to sensible drinking - if not it might become permanent.

I love wine. I want to be able to enjoy it without compromising my health long-term, my weight, my running (try running 10miles the morning after you've downed a bottle of red ),my mental health and my bank balance.

I've cancelled the bottles of red wine I ordered wih my supermarket delivery tomorrow, and replaced them with tonic water. I am planning to run more as a distraction. Anyone got any tips - the crunch point for me is about 6.30 when I am getting dinner ready. I don't want to fail because they I will be scared about myself and my addiction (no other word for it).

All advice gratefully received.

Orm. Are you drinking enough water/other fluids?

Have you got strong painkillers? Solpadeine is a good one, especially the soluble one as it gets into your system more quickly.

How's it going otherwise?

Day 3 for me yesterday, and so far so good - more pleased about the fact that I didn't even think about opening a bottle yesterday. I'm hoping that this will continue over the weekend. DH is away this weekend, which will make it easier, as I won't have to sit and watch him! Although to be fair to him, he has joined me in the abstinence so far.

BTW, Orm - are you on Facebook? If you are, give me a clue as to who you are so I can message you. If not, I will CAT you ...

Orm

sorry if I have scared you. But however I word it it is not going to change the observable facts which are that:

• There is such a thing as a drink problem
• No ne chooses to have a drink problem - though it is not clear whether problem drinkers are born or made, a problem is a problem
• The nature of a problem with alcohol is that you cannot control your consumption
• Abstinence has nothing to do with it. I have "abstained" for over seven years. Do you honestly believe that I could start drinking now and be a normal drinker? If you do, why? What exactly is that seven years meant to have changed in me? I mean, by and large, I "abstained" from alcohol totally until I was 16 - why didn't those 16 years protect me from my drink problem?
• If you think you became an alcoholic the first time you had a drink that made you feel drunk, when, in your opinion, did you become NOT an alcoholic? And, if you didn't, then surely you are STILL an alcoholic? An alcoholic is someone who has a problem with drink (as in bad things happen when you drink but still you drink again - quantity and frequency don't really come into it.)

I have no idea whether you are an alcoholic or not, or (if you prefer) a "problem drinker". I am only going on what you have told us about your drinking and on what any knowledgeable and experienced GP will tell you about the behaviour of problem drinkers. Only you can know whether that particular cap fits you or not - but, if it does, then wearing it is not really a matter of choice ...

I don't care what you call me either miflaw! Alcoholic, problem drinker, someone with a dodgy relationship to booze. And I am not saying I am not still any of those things. And I don't expect a month off to change that. The month off is to make me feel better physically and emotionally. But having been in control more or less for years I wonder why that changed and if I can ever get back to drinking and doing so sensibly. I know it's down to me and no-one else. And if I do have a major problem it isn't going to go away. So we'll see.

Thanks for all your advice. it is much appreciated

biwi - I am not on fb, no. It's going very well. Not missing it at all. Not even one teeny weeny bit - which surprised me. I am eating too much though

FWIW and cutting the psychobabble to which I am perhaps prone ...

My own practical experience with problem drinking (and I was WELL into Shit County by the time I was 27, if that matters either way) is this. My drinking gradually increased over the years but this was punctuated by the odd disaster. Sometimes drinking caused the disaster (I'm afraid we don't need a temp any more, thanks very much); often it didn't. Whichever was the case, my tendency was to deal with disaster (and, for that matter, major celebrations) by drinking. And here's the funny thing. The disaster meant that I was now drinking more. However, when the disaster was over, my drinking would go back down, but never to the level it had been at pre-disaster. In other words, what should have been a downward slope turned out to be a downwards staircase - some of those steps were quite a jolt, and it was a staircase that only went downwards - I could never climb back up it, only stay where I was while i waited to go down another step.

I also know from experience that, if I drink after a period of abstinence, I may start at the top of the stair case, but within days, if not hours, I have jogged back down to the step I was on when I stopped, and sometimes go down another one or two for luck.

How does that square with your experience and does it offer a possible explanation of why, after 18 months of "control" (a word which will get you blank looks from most normal drinkers, who don't control anything, but just don't want to get arseholed on a regular basis) you are finding it so hard?

I am not sure. There are a few little seemingly minor things that have made it 'possible' for me to drink more. DH had stopped drinking red wine due to IBS - I love red wine but rarely had it beacuse of DH. I started to buy the odd bottle as a treat and ended up drinking most of it in one go. Ended up with me having one bottle and DH having another . One night of the week used to be the only one we were both in - we used to share a bottle that night. DH started going to the gym that night instead of another and I didn't stop opening the wine - so again, got through most of it in one go. And life has been stressful but that's just an excuse.

I don't know where it will go from here. But I am appreciating having this safe place to rest and think about things that I have avoided for years.

Have CATd you, Orm.

I think finding yourself using the words "ended up" more than occasionally in itself gives you some indication of how it is ...

Hi Orm (and others of course)

I was a bit like this this time last year. Would have a glass or two of white wine once DH came home and I was cooking etc. Then we would open a bottle of red with dinner and would finish it. And sometimes we opened another bottle. Decided it had to stop but knew from previous attempts to not drink for a while that it was the social aspect of chatting to DH with a drink that I enjoyed. So I switched to a long and very weak spritzer - an inch of wine in a long glass topped up with fizzy water and ice. I measure it out one night and 3 of these were equivalent to 1 of my previous glasses of white wine. So I have drastically cut down on the quantity I drink but I still have the same nice chatty, winding down time.

Over Xmas it crept back up but I feel the effects earlier now and start drinking water. This week have been back on my spritzers.

I feel ok with this. I feel I am in control of my drinking. Social occassions are a bit different as I talk so much usually that I concentrate on the wine and not the water intake! That is next to conquer.

If DH is not here I rarely have a drink even if there is wine open. I eat earlier if he is not here and then usually have a cuppa. Very rarely if he is out and I am watching something on TV I will have one glass of wine.

buda - that might be a method I could try. Thanks.

miflaw - I know what you are saying. And I know you might be right. What about those who say 'I made a pot of coffee and ended up drinking the whole lot myself' or 'I opened a bar of chocolate and ended up eating it all myself'? Is that a problem? And if not what is the difference? Is it that alcohol is so damaging in itself in a way that chocolate and coffee isn't? So, regardless of my addiction, if I can drink and keep in under control most of the time so that I am not screwing my liver and my head, is that OK? And yes I know only I can answer that question

Please don't beleve I am in denial about the problem. I am not. I am aware that something needs to change. But I am finding it so refreshing to be able to touch on this subject and really think about it in away that I have shied away from for a while. I am enjoying having a chance to air these thoughts.

I've never been refused service in Caffe Nero and I've never stomped off to bed over nothing after too many Smarties ...

That's the thing, really. I noticed the other day that I very definitely had physical symptoms of being addicted to coffee. But so what? Its effects on my life are negligible. The same was not true of alcohol.

Do oyu know, I often share at AA meetings (AA works for me - I'm not saying everyone has to go) that, when I stopped drinking, I had no real responsibilities. Not married; a serious girlfriend but we didn't live together or hold any property in common; no kids; a shit job, but I got by; not even any pets. And I say to the assembled company that, had drinking still been making me happy at this point, I would not have felt too hard done by if, aged 27, I had drunk myself to death.

Obviously, this shocks a few people. It shocks me these days. But it is basically true. I did not stop drinking because of its effects on my physical health, or even to save a relationship (that's partly why I went to AA, but in itself it was nowhere near enough of an incentive and I drank again several times). I certainly did not stop drinking becuase of the money, even thuogh every budget I ever drew up had my drinks ration right at the very top because it wasn't a luxury but a regular outgoing, like gas and rent.

I stopped drinking because it was doing my head in and making me miserable. I couldn't drink like I wanted to without seriously pissing off loved ones and making my own life unimaginably hard; but nor could I drink less than I wanted to.

Do you know, I've never felt like that about coffee or chocolate?

"I stopped drinking because it was doing my head in and making me miserable."

I was like that with cigarettes. Every cigarette I lit I hated myself but knew I'd light another as soon as that was finished. My reasons for giving up booze are not the same. I felt it was impacting on my kids in a way that was not acceptable. Not being agressive or violent, but simply not being available to them in the evenings. i functioned well on a bellyful of wine, but not at 100%.

Stopping smoking was one of the hardest things I ever did. Getting pregnant was the only reason I ever found that was good enough to make me stop for good.

MIFLAW - well done for stopping something that was making you so miserable.

I think some people seem to be more 'sensitive' or prone to develop an addiction or to self-medicate with alcohol than others and perhaps you are one of those. I know for me and for may people I know, we just enjoy a glass of wine in the evening and gradually end up consuming more and more. I really don't think that makes us all alcoholics. Many of us have had no problem stopping drinking while pregnant for instance and while breast-feeding.

I have also never been refused service in Cafe Nero - nor any bar I have ever been in. My personality doesn't change when I drink. I do think that some people react differently.

Your specific reasons may well be different - but ultimately you seem to be saying that you don't like yourself as a drinker, which is my basic point.

it's the same as the point about "ended up". DRINK doesn't have an impact on anyone. Drink comes in bottles. If you leave it in that bottle, it won't harm you or anyone else.

What was impacting on your kids is not drink but your consumption of drink, surely? And yet you drank it at times when that consumption would affect them.

Please don't think I am condemning you because that is essentially what I was trying to say. I didn't stop because my girlfriend asked me to - I tried (though failed) to stop because the fact that she clearly disliked me and thought I was a hopeless loser hurt me and depressed me.

I can now simplify it and say drink made me miserable, but what effectively happened was that drink was stopping me being me; and the only reason "drink" was able to do that was becuase I kept getting on the outside of it. It followed that I needed to cut down or stop consuming it. When I tried and failed to moderate my drinking, I didn't have too many options left ...

Buda

i completely agree with you.

I have, I hope, been at pains to describe an experience of alcohol, and a relationship with alcohol, that is a world away from how you describe yours.

To illustrate, I would have stabbed myself through the hands sooner than try any variation of your spritzer remedy, yet clearly it worked for you. I did, occasionally, try watering my wine. As a result, it would go down more quickly and I would feel less guilty about drinking it. So I would drink it more quickly. So I would be hitting the second bottle at about the same time as I hit the second bottle when drinking it neat. So I would give up on the water experiment as a needless distraction. Had I known you as a drinker, the very mention of a "weak spritzer" would have reduced you massively in my estimation, even if that was all I knew about you.

Please - and this is a general point to anyone interested - do not think I am preaching indiscriminately to all drinkers. I only post on threads where the OP self-diagnoses a problem or issue around alcohol. You will search in vain for a posting where I condemn the consumption of alcohol. I post to attempt to offer support and help to people whose lives are negatively affected by alcohol and who cannot find a working solution to that problem. Not all of them like what I have to say - I wouldn't have liked to hear it myself when I was in their shoes.

But I have literally nothing to say about drinking to non-problem drinkers and would not like you to think that I was telling you how to drink or not to drink. I am certainly not saying everyone who occasionally drinks too much is an alcoholic.

I AM saying that many people are alcoholics and have trouble acknowledging it or even spotting it in themselves.

miflaw - I do appreciate what you say. Very much and am grateful for all your advice.

I hope that I don't have trouble acknowledging my drinking. But quite how deep and untackleable it is I am trying to find out.

buda - " we just enjoy a glass of wine in the evening and gradually end up consuming more and more. I really don't think that makes us all alcoholics" I don't know about that last point. But my argument is that whatever label you put on it the effect is the same. I called myself an 'alcoholic' earlier because my very first taste of alcohol made a huge impact on me and I would say I have never been a take-it-or-leave it drinker since that day. Not to say I can't not drink, I don't find it hard when I make that decision, but it is a decision I have to make iyswim.

"who cannot find a working solution to that problem" but I don't know that I can't as yet miflaw. I am trying to do so.

Absolutely. Only you can know that.

What I meant is that I offered my advice because it seemed you might be in that position.

I would rather present the facts as I understand them to someone who doesn't need them than not present them to someone who does.

Hope I haven't been a nag.

miflaw - you have been a total star I often need nagging. I also find it really helpful to crystalise all the thoughts and general chaos that has been in my head about this aubject.

I hoped you'd say that!

Reporting in here. All going well so far.

I suspect in many ways - for me at least - drinking wine has become a habit. We never drink on Monday, and that is definitely a habit. I'm quite happy and don't even think about having a drink. So I'd like to make it a habit not drinking on other nights, too.

I seem to remember someone saying that you had to perform a new behaviour 100 times before it becomes a habit. Not sure if that's true or not!

MIFLAW - I would agree that your relationship with alcohol seems to be different to mine. And again I say hats off to you for stopping.

HowmanytimesDS - I don't ever remember a drink having the effect you describe. Not even my first drink.

I think what I am trying to say is that although lots of people drink too much, they are not necessarily alcoholics. And I think that conversely there are people who don't drink bottles and bottles who -are- alcoholics. My Dad would have been at one stage although he is much better now.

I know that I don't NEED a drink. I love certain wines. Enjoy the very ocassional gin and tonic. Also love champagne. But if I am out and I get served a wine I am not keen on, I will not bother with it. Would drink water instead. I also know I can enjoy myself socially without drinking.

As I said earlier on for me part of the enjoyment is the social aspect of chatting to DH about our days etc over a drink. I now do that with MUCH less wine than I used to. Don't wake up with that seedy feeling but still enjoy the whole 'drink' experience.

I think that there are lots of people like that. I have also noticed on MN that quite often someone will start a thread saying that they need to cut down on their drink consumption and whilst obviously some of them really do have a problem, others 'just need to cut down'. I think on this thread it was purplepeony who straight away said that Orm should go to AA. It made me feel a bit as nothing in what Orm had written made me think that she had a problem that she couldn't deal with. I think that there is a danger that people could be turned off posting threads here about trying to cut down on alcohol consumption by people who can only visualise doing that with the help of AA. Equally I am aware that there have been people who have posted who have had huge problems and who have been helped immensely by people like purplepeony and MIFLAW who have managed to conquer their problems.

I would also agree with the post further up the thread where the AA criteria for diagnosing an alcoholic is a bit wide. As stated lots of us could answer yes to some of those questions. Most of my friends could. Even those who hardly drink!

I am not downplaying the seriousness of the issue but in this instance I think that Orm herself knows that she can be in control. If not I am sure she will get the help she needs. However surely the point that she posts on here wanting to cut down for health sort of proves that she doesn't have a huge problem? Most people who are alcoholics would be hugely in denial that they drank too much.

Anyway - that was a bit of an essay and I am really not trying to annoy anyone. Just pointing out that having too much wine does not necessarily mean that you are an alcoholic. In my book being an alcoholic is someone who cannot control how and how much they drink.

Now I am off to walk my dog!

Buda - sorry to confuse but I am orm! Just fancied namechange. And when I called myself and 'alcoholic' it was in response to those who said that anyone who is in anyway 'uses' alcohol rather than just enjoying it, is an alcoholic. I drink because I love the taste of wine, but like you if I am not enjoying the taste I won't bother. However I'd be lying if I also didn't enjoy the feeling that alcohol gives me and there are times when I use it to change my mood. And there is also a huge habit element that IME is the most damaging thing and the one that I am so pleased that I seemed to have broken out of (for now).

I think the terms you use (I mean 'one' not you) to describe your relationship to alcohol are irrelevant.

"I would also agree with the post further up the thread where the AA criteria for diagnosing an alcoholic is a bit wide. As stated lots of us could answer yes to some of those questions. Most of my friends could. Even those who hardly drink!" AA does not have any criteria for "diagnosing an alcoholic." AA provides tools for people to decide for themselves if they are alcoholics. Even if you get, say, 15 out of 20 on those quizzes (which many people do if they are honest) there is no diagnosis, merely the suggestion that you probably do have a problem. It is up to you to decide whether that's true or not.

Also, clearly AA sets the bar very low on these initial questionnaires because people lie. We would obviously much rather someone came to a meeting, said, "oh, now I understand, this doesn't sound like me, I'm not an alcoholic after all" and never came back (though you would be amazed how rarely that happens), than that an alcoholic thought "that's not for me, I'm not that bad", didn't come to a meeting, and died or went insane.

It may not be apparent to you, but there are two clear and distinct "types" of threads on here. One of them says, oh hell, jeans too tight, feel a bit poorly, need to cut down on drink. The other says (between the lines sometimes, but often quite explicitly) my life is a mess, I want to cut down on drink but cannot, I feel I should stop but cannot imagine doing so, I am so afraid of not being in control, it wasn't meant to be like this, someone help me please because I am out of ideas.

Obviously, in both cases, it's a spectrum - I am not saying that every alcoholic needs to feel suicidal before asking for help.

I endeavour only to post on the latter sort - and apologies if I have got it wrong here or anywhere else. I would not dream of posting on the former because I have no advice to offer. I certainly would not imagine there is a place for such people in AA - it's not a diet club or a pastime - and so I would never encourage such people to attend. Indeed, I would not want them in my meetings because I have nothing in common with them.

again, apologies if in this case I have mistaken the former for the latter.

One last thing - "Most people who are alcoholics would be hugely in denial that they drank too much." Totally untrue, I'm afraid. Almost every alcoholic I have ever spoken to knew he or she was drinking too much. But. There was always a "but". But I'm going to cut down. But I don't drink spirits. But I don't drink in the morning. But I don't drink as much as my boss/boyfriend/wife/mum/best mate Jim. But I've got a job. But I can afford it. In fact, any "but" at all that could conceivably lead up to the "so" - "so I can't be an alcoholic."

Eventually, of course, the "buts" stopped convincing the people themsleves and that's how I ended up meeting most of them ...