Unvaccinated children for those interested

[blisteringbarnacles]

Hi
I'm sorry everybody but doubletroublemaker was really me. I was just in an antsy mood at what I saw to be blind faith in government recommendations and changed my name to stir up debate, though apart from that I was posting in good faith. Do forgive me (or not --don't blame you) but I'm now about to post various bits of information that people expressed an interest in. I can't do a link due to mumsnet techno illiteracy but am copying and pasting some stuff which you may want to google or investigate further. Or not.

"In Chicago, Homefirst Medical Services treats thousands of never-vaccinated children whose parents received exemptions through Illinois' relatively permissive immunization policy. Homefirst's medical director, Dr. Mayer Eisenstein, told us he is not aware of any cases of autism in never-vaccinated children. The national rate is 1 in 175, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. "We have a fairly large practice," Eisenstein says. "We have about 30,000 or 35,000 children that we've taken care of over the years, and I don't think we have a single case of autism in children delivered by us who never received vaccines. "We do have enough of a sample," Eisenstein said. "The numbers are too large to not see it. We would absolutely know. We're all family doctors. If I have a child with autism come in, there's no communication. It's frightening. You can't touch them. It's not something that anyone would miss."

Just a starter, now I'm going to look for more, particularly on allergies.

I can only go on my experience but i am v cautious in my approach to routine vaccinations. My dd had her first set of jabs bang on the 8 week mark, and that evening started fitting (not related to a high temp - she didn't have one). When I discussed this with the health visitor and later my GP they pretty much dismissed me because this wasn't a regular side-effect (I had my mum staying w me for a few days who witnessed this 'fitting' and it happened on several days after the jab). Now it may have just been a coincidence but I wasn't prepared to take the risk again, so I started investigating other alternatives. I have gone down the homeopathy route (which I know lots of people are v sceptical about, but it works for us). My dd has a short course before a jab to build up her immune system and then a quick detox course after it. She has had her 3 and 4 mths jabs but at 5 and 8 mths so she's that bit more developed and her body seemed to cope much better. She's now 14 mths and hasn't yet had her 12 mth jabs - she will, but in a few months time, and again w the homeopathic support. The key is not to do nothing (if that makes sense?).

Haven't got much time but just wanted to say on the mumps / measles in adults..
It was said that many of those who contracted mumps in the last outbreak were too old to have had the MMR. However there was a big push for vaccination of all 5-16 year olds in 1994. Which means that many 28-30 year olds will have been vaccinated with MR or MMR.

Yurt I'm sorry I pointed you in the direction of this thread. I thought you might be interested and just didn't realise how much of a "punch-up" it might turn into.

i would have my dd3 vaccinated against tetanus and polio if they were available seperatly,but we arent given that option.

there are plenty of other childhood illness that can kill,which there are no vaccinations for-namely bronchiolitis which put my dd2 in ICU when she was 2 weeks old.she was one of 6 babies(out of 10 on the whole ward)in there with it.i would be interested to know why respiritory illnesses/infections have increased so dramatically in the past 20 years

when dd2 was having her jabs i asked if she was still going to have the Hib vaccination,seeing as she had had a Hib infection (courtesy of the hospital) at 2 weeks old.the nurse said yes,and when i asked why she just blatantly ignored me.

In response to the earlier question about what jabs "unvaccinated" children have had, with my duaghter she is exactly that - unvaccinated. She didn't have the vit K, polio, tetnus, hib etc etc. I also declined the anti-D whilst pregnant.
With my family history I couldn't take the risk. She is five now.
My GP is perfectly happy as is her school.

haven't got the will to add anything...but am with custardo...

Diva, isn't there a therory that infections like that maybe at a higher occurance now, because of the many cleaning products we use and because most people sort of overclean (hehe...my perfect excuse for being a rubbish housewife)!

Also, it probably doesn't help that we put endless amounts of poisons into and onto our bodys everyday...like all the soaps, shampoes, lotions, potions and deodorants for starters, as well as all those things we eat that are either covered with some sort of poison or have added hormones etc....

Yes there is that theory that this damages our immune systems. But as there is a direct assault on the undeveloped immune system at eight weeks old, repeated at 12 and 16 weeks, by not only viral toxoids but also materials such as aluminium and formaldehyde; taking into account the many recorded instances of damage, regression and death directly following these applications, I am not sure why the hygiene hypothesis gains more ground than the one which seems to be staring us in the face.

I just don't like blanket generalizations either way. I know many, many, children who have had all their vaccinations bang on schedule and have grown up without any ill side effects, bright and full of energy. I can understand the DOH's strategy when developing the vaccine schedule for this country [although ideally i would like it to start later and rubella to be given to adolescent girls not babies] They look at what is best, they think, for the general health of the population.

However, undoubtedly a minority of children can be damaged by vaccines, on a sliding scale of severity. What annoys me about the medical industry, is the [mostly] refusal to accept this possibility and to develop more research into susceptible groups. just because it is a minority of children shouldn't mean, ethically, that you can just see them as collateral damage for the greater good. Also, research often stops into a disease, the way it works, and possible cures, once a vaccine has been found. We still have absolutely no idea why some children get meningitis from bacteria many other children carry without any problems at all, because we rely on vaccines. This is a big flaw in the system, especially as it seems as soon as a vaccine for one meningitis strain is developed, another meningitis strain gains dominance.
The polarity of opinions on both sides does nothing to improve the situation.

what is interesting in countries where polio has not been eradicated is the fact that children may have multiple doses of the [live] vaccine, coverage may be widespread and yet it still keeps resurfacing. Nobody knows why. In Indonesia they got rid of polio and WHO announced it a polio free zone, and then it came back. Odd.

I agree. Two of mine are children who grew up with no ill effects at all: another I am sure was affected by the mercury in the infant vaccinations but we have not suffered the distress and damage of other families. But why would my own experience make me dismiss the experience of others?

I think the polarity of opinion in large part derives from the absolute refusal of the medical industry to engage in the debate at all, and to smear anyone from within who does. It makes measured discussion quite hard.

I also echo your polio comment. Every single resurgence of polio in the undeveloped world seems to be blamed on "the Muslims of Nigeria" who tried to intervene in a vaccination campaign. Considering that many vaccinated children across the world have no immunity from polio at all despite multiple vaccinations that's not something I readily accept.

It's clear from this thread that, though our conclusions may differ, we've all been thinking and researching and discussing this issue very hard and are all keen to make what we deem to be the best decision for our children and the greater good.

Monkeytrousers your tirade is unwarranted and unhelpful, unless you are keen to stifle all debate that is, which I doubt.

Sorry, those who chose not to vaccinate are doing nothing for the greater good.

It's their decision nonetheless.
One they can afford in a rich country where medical help is available.

Let's just remember that most people on this planet live in another socio-economic realm where they can not afford to have this discussion.
If their kids are not vaccinated well they are very likely to become severely ill and die from something totally preventable.

It's an open world. What goes around comes around.

I live in Ghana. If Bill Gates & co were to develop a vaccine against malaria, I'd inject it into my two, pronto. If would save millions of lives. It would certainly not be a giant drug company ploy to make money out of poorer nations.

In addition to the normal childhood vaccines (went private with DTP to avoid mercury, though that's now been removed), we have also vaccinated DS against yellow fever, typhoid, Hep A & B, rabies, meningitis ACWY and last year, against the flu (was particularly nasty here).

I guess everyone just has to do their own risk assessment.

I see that the last post on this thread was a month back, but here I am with my 9 week old on my lap, sleeping, whilst I research vaccinations in order to help us decide,whether to or not to.

My instincts tell me not to, but fear tells me to.

Can anyone recommend reading material/links, pro or anti?

thanks

Thanks Sooty
I will look up that book.
What makes things more complicated is the fact that we live in the Netherlands, where vax are not compulsory but where we are also heavily pressurised. The same debates rage etc, but the language stands as a barrier to becoming fully informed. thus my question to MNers.

I therefore greatly appreciate all recomendations from you and others.

Does no one ever think of a solution to get rid of the disease from the air/soil etc?
does any one know where measles comes from?
I know tetanus lives in soil or something and things like cholera are in untreated water. Why not eradicate the source if possible instead of injecting people?? But them there's no money in that is there - GP's wouldn't get their bonuses for hitting vaccination targets etc.
I had to have a tetanus at Xmas due to an accident I had (needed stitches in my foot) - my arm swelled up and it was stiff - I couldn't move it properly next day - very scary; it was bruised (about 2 inches in diameter"), I had a headache and felt hot/feverish/sore throat etc for 2 days. I didn't feel the pain from my injured foot - I was taking painkillers for my arm! Yet I couldn't feel the needle at all - it was so tiny.
If that's what it did to me as an adult (contained mercury but wasn't "live") then what the hell does it do to an 8 week old baby?
Oh and I had a lump under my skin for a week after as well.

If you catch measles, chances are you ain't gonna be catching mumps and rubella on the same day, plus the 7 or other so toxins they put in a child all at once. Their argument is it saves time and is less stressful - 1 injection, not 3; people wouldn't bother to go to separate appts.
Well, I don't agree - they are only out to make money from the combined jabs and stuff what happens to the kids.
If they give people the choice of single jabs, then surely it is better for people to choose which ones they want and vaccinate, than have all those people not choosing any of them?
I want DD to have the single jab for Rubella when she's older - yet I was told that has been withdrawn even privately - and apparently if you need a booster yourself before/after pregnancy - guess what they offer you now? MMR. No choice. They tell you that you have to have it or you are putting your future baby at risk. Not content with getting the kids, they are starting on adult women now. I hope the single one is still available somewhere in the world for DD when she will need it.

Quick conspiracy theory: I have always thought deep down that MMR may be actually a government microchip they inject to keep tabs on your movements/conversations etc through a sat nav or something. Mad, but possible!!!!!

hi all

I don't want to wade in to the argument but my dcs are unvaccinated and my ds1 was bitten by a dog last year. We took him to the hospital and they recommended a tetanus shot which we agreed to. At first they insisted there was only the 5-in-1 available, which we refused. After lengthy discussion however, they gave him a straight tetanus only jab, so it would seem they are available??? .... this was in Australia....