Unvaccinated children for those interested

[blisteringbarnacles]

Hi
I'm sorry everybody but doubletroublemaker was really me. I was just in an antsy mood at what I saw to be blind faith in government recommendations and changed my name to stir up debate, though apart from that I was posting in good faith. Do forgive me (or not --don't blame you) but I'm now about to post various bits of information that people expressed an interest in. I can't do a link due to mumsnet techno illiteracy but am copying and pasting some stuff which you may want to google or investigate further. Or not.

"In Chicago, Homefirst Medical Services treats thousands of never-vaccinated children whose parents received exemptions through Illinois' relatively permissive immunization policy. Homefirst's medical director, Dr. Mayer Eisenstein, told us he is not aware of any cases of autism in never-vaccinated children. The national rate is 1 in 175, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. "We have a fairly large practice," Eisenstein says. "We have about 30,000 or 35,000 children that we've taken care of over the years, and I don't think we have a single case of autism in children delivered by us who never received vaccines. "We do have enough of a sample," Eisenstein said. "The numbers are too large to not see it. We would absolutely know. We're all family doctors. If I have a child with autism come in, there's no communication. It's frightening. You can't touch them. It's not something that anyone would miss."

Just a starter, now I'm going to look for more, particularly on allergies.

Nooka, if you want I could try to find some opinions from immunologists or pharmacologists for you? Not an antsy tone at all here, just if you want I could try. I'm sure they'll be outnumbered by your immunologists, but then the minority isn't always in the wrong.

" I'm sure they'll be outnumbered by your immunologists, but then the minority isn't always in the wrong"

blisteringbarnacles..... you might not be wrong, but labelling others immature does not add credence to your arguments. I have read what you have posted, and i am not now thinking that i have done the wrong thing by having my children immunised.

you don;t have to convince everyone, you cannot convince everyone, it is an interesting and worthwhile debate, but for every argument for , there will be a counter argument, and vice verse. but we can all learn something, whether we choose to change what we do is another matter.

Hi lulumama, I have no objection to using stuff like that in everyday life, but you know I respect people's points of view in a debate like this and I think it IS immature to try to squish something by saying it's bollocks or scare-mongering crap. And it definitely does nothing for the credence of your arguments. I don't want to convince anybody that's the point it's up to parents to decide. Everyone knows what's right for their child. But why are people so afraid of the information? Not you, I remember you asked for it. But some people seem to WANT to get mad.

i think that in a debate such as this, where we are essentially debating babies and childrens' health.. those on both sides can feel very sure for their reasons, and therefore get cross/ heated/ use strong words.. when they want to get the importance of their point across. i don;t think it is a particular personal attack on you, nor a deliberate getting mad to avoid the debate...

strong feelings are echoed in strong words, no-one can see anyone here,so words have to convey it all..!

people are not afraid of the truth, but it is not trying to squash debate by using those words. which are after all, someone elses opinion, and just as valid as yours!

if any of that made sense then great !!

i still dont understand your POV barnicles.

that vaccination doesn't prevent anything?

I understand barnacles and I totally agree with you. It's incredible just how convinced so many people are that vaccinations have stamped out various diseases when it's patently untrue and the figures are there for anyone to see. The sheer extent of misinformation shocks me. Yet no-one will dare stand up now from inside the medical establishment and cast doubt on this sacred cow. There's too much at stake and they know they'd be the subject of a witch hunt.

"herd immunity is just a sales rap. "

er-no its not. It really isn't

go to a graveyard and look at the very small gravestones dating back about 50-100 years, if you don't believe me

We are so obscenely lucky, not just to live in this time, but also this country, where we can prevent our kids getting dieseases which routinely killed several kids out of every family.

For any baby to die now in the UK is a tragedy. Go back to the time before vaccination and it was commonplace, even expected. Even rich people, with relatively well sanitised houses, routinely had 10 kids and expected perhaps 3 to survive to adulthood

Oh and anyone who thinks measles is harmless-no it isn't. It cost me the sight in one eye, I have an aunty who is partly deaf, etc. Its NOT harmless, its just that virtually no one gets it now, because MOST kids are vaccinated.

Charlieandlola sorry to hear about your eye and your aunt.

However, I and all my friends and family and indeed everyone I knew had measles. No-one was frightened of it. No-one received any complications nor did we expect to. Thew truth is complications in well nourished otherwise healthy people are extremely rare.

I notice the government is now warming us all up for chicken pox injections. The drug company which is going to make them will be rubbing its hands and our childrens children will fear Chicken Pox as a killer no doubt.

No to mention the FACT that vaccinations don't make you immune (the outbreaks were amongst vaccinated chldren).

Herd immunity is bullying.

Read the stats. people credit vaccination with stamping out so many diseases but the facts are that the diseases ran their course before the vaccinations even came in. And in the case of small pox most of the deaths occured in the final years because of vaccination.

Diseases like scarlet fever died out and ran their course before they were able to rush a vaccine onto the market.

vaccinations don;t make you immune? so ,what does then? or is simply a placebo? am honestly interested

i would like to understand more

i really would

but i fear the stats on each side are not neccesarily trustworthy, lies, damn lies and all that...

if some diseases were eradicated by better hygiene, sanitation and nourishment, i understand that, but surely that does not account for all of them

are vaccinations really pointless?

my uncle has poor eyesight due to childhood measles, i had measles, rubella, whooping cough and mumps, luckily no long lasting ill effects. from what my mum tells me,it was deeply unpleasant and frightening at the time...

whooping cough? polio?

measles isnt some slight of fancy - i am glad you and yours are fine.

chicken pox can be dangerous to adults.

i agree that the chicken pox vaccine will push up the age of people who get it and could be more lethal

Sorry, but I live in an area of London which has recently seen a measles epidemic thanks to parents not vaccinating their children (and/or not getting the booster). Children have been hospitalised and babies (too young to be vaccinated, so no choice) have also vaught the disease. If you don't vaccinate against measles, and your school age child gets it and passes on to a newborn, is that OK?

also their is a difference between 'blind faith in the government' and following medical advice based on, er, RESEARCH.

64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:-2-jUJ3JgmgJ:www.redcross.org/article/0,1072,0_283_5255,00.html+why+di d+i+get+measles+if+i+was+vaccinated%3F&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=uk

redcrossarticle about measles in bangladesh

but i await to be told that the red cross is funded by smithkline beecham

"Measles is the leading vaccine-preventable disease worldwide, killing an estimated 470,000 children each year. In Bangladesh, approximately 20,000 children die annually from measles-related illnesses, but the disease can be easily prevented with a simple vaccination that costs less than one dollar per child"

Polio was a massive problem in the 1950s. Many children died or were permanently disabled. It was eradicated thanks to vaccination. I hope nooone is seriously suggesting that a population where polioo and TB are rife is a good thing?

custardo remember children in Bangladesh are generally not very well nourished. Measles is a disease where a strong, well nourished child has a much greater chance of coping with the disease with no lasting effects. I am not treating it lightly, i myself was in hospital with measles, but Vitamin A can help greatly reduce the possibility of a serious course of measles [this is medical not quackery advice] I'm not saying the same is true for diseases like diptheria and polio [that a well nourished child is not at risk]

Lulumama vaccines do work and do provide immunity. The problem is that immunity can wear off [though generally not for polio and diptheria i think] You then have a risk of a whole new generation of adults who are not immune to diseases we are immune to because we actually had the diseases not the vaccines [i'm talking about measles mumps and rubella here] I feel very strongly that all girls should receive a rubella jab at 11 or 12, rather than all babies, as then you protect the vulnerable group [pregnant women]. So many girls who got the rubella jab as a child are no longer immune. Similarly some measles outbreaks are happening amongst vaccinated populations.

What i have always struggled with is that each side in this debate is so sure they are right. It seems a way of justifying their choices. I am not sure either way. I find this blanket statement 'Vaccination had nothing to do with the reduction in disease' extremely hard to swallow. I do not believe vaccination is solely responsibly for the reduction in disease [i have looked at the stats] but it is impossible to prove that it did not play a part.

Likewise I find it very hard when people say it is just a coincidence if a child develops autism after an MMR vaccine. If you listen to parents to whom this has happened, it is impossible to discount the reality, and Wakefield's research has been shoddily muddied and he has been treated very badly. The truth will hopefully out in the end [again he always said MMR was safe for the majority]

I guess feeling sure either way must be a blessing. I think the truth is probably more complicated than that.

ruty do you think that measles is by and large akin to chicken pox - in that you get a bit poorly but get over it?

if so do you think that children are still given this vaccine becuase of the influence of drug companies?

on many issues i am very much a libertarian but on the issue of vaccines i am not. If there is a widespread vacination programme that it is socially responsible for you to let your dcs have it even if you disapprove of the programme .

custardo i just said i myself was hospitalized with measles. I do not treat it lightly. But it is a killer disease generally when a child is immuno compromised and/or badly nourished. I believe single measles, mumps and rubella vaccines should be available on the National Health. I beleive more research desperately needs to be done on the link between the measles virus and gut disorders that autistic or at risk of autism children often suffer from.

beleive?

thank you ruty, i think what you say makes total sense

Something that interests me id the idea that we'd all be grateful for vaccinations if we had to live with the consequences of the natural diseases. In fact in the early days the introduction of new vaccinations was done far more cautiously than it is now (especially after DT vaccination inadvertently triggered the massive polio outbreak of the 1940's- think I have the dates right).

Even today in developing countries there is sometimes suspicion about vaccinations newspaper report here and here for example in places we might expect to be 'grateful'. Untested vaccinations never go down well. The Cochrane report (pro vaccination) of course concluded that the safety testing for the MMR was inadequate. The issue is never as black and white as we may be led to believe.

I'm going Twig,

My Mum is deaf in one ear from measles btw- so I don't consider measles to be entirely benign. That doesn't make me want to rush out an get measles vaccination for my 3 and 6 year old though.

Amen to that!

"The issue is never as black and white as we may be led to believe".

Complicated issue. As someone who is personally affected I hate the way these discussions get polarised.

Yes and you know once upon a time I believed in having as many vaccinations as possible. My beliefs then were quite simple. Vaccination could only every be a Good Thing. Our experiences led to me changing my mind. I don't necessarily think they're a bad thing now, although I think vaccination policy is ill thought out, makes no attempt to consider individual differences and no attempt to right its wrongs so to speak.