Unvaccinated children for those interested

[blisteringbarnacles]

Hi
I'm sorry everybody but doubletroublemaker was really me. I was just in an antsy mood at what I saw to be blind faith in government recommendations and changed my name to stir up debate, though apart from that I was posting in good faith. Do forgive me (or not --don't blame you) but I'm now about to post various bits of information that people expressed an interest in. I can't do a link due to mumsnet techno illiteracy but am copying and pasting some stuff which you may want to google or investigate further. Or not.

"In Chicago, Homefirst Medical Services treats thousands of never-vaccinated children whose parents received exemptions through Illinois' relatively permissive immunization policy. Homefirst's medical director, Dr. Mayer Eisenstein, told us he is not aware of any cases of autism in never-vaccinated children. The national rate is 1 in 175, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. "We have a fairly large practice," Eisenstein says. "We have about 30,000 or 35,000 children that we've taken care of over the years, and I don't think we have a single case of autism in children delivered by us who never received vaccines. "We do have enough of a sample," Eisenstein said. "The numbers are too large to not see it. We would absolutely know. We're all family doctors. If I have a child with autism come in, there's no communication. It's frightening. You can't touch them. It's not something that anyone would miss."

Just a starter, now I'm going to look for more, particularly on allergies.

Well I have spoken personally to a well respected doctor who gives single Measles, Mumps and Rubella and has published a book about the dangers of vaccines, and he feels that vaccination for polio, diptheria and tetanus is still warranted as a basic, and that other vaccinations can play a valuable role, depending on the individual child's health and family history, etc.

I am sure public hygiene played a large part in the eradication of diptheria and polio, but it is impossible to say that vaccination did not also play a part. And what about if you want to travel? What if you want to take an unvaccinated child to India, or Russia [where there was a diptheria epidemic a few years ago] I think one should not be complacent, either way.

ds1 had all the jabs, then after the mmr his little body stopped growing, he stopped eating, he stopped speaking, he had shocking diarrohea for years. It took a lot of therapy to start him back on the road to 'recovery'.

Needless to say the other 5 have have not had the mmr.

Kittywise You must have worked so hard.. especially with five smaller ones.

I agree with Ruty about complacency but for me it works the other way.

But one of the reasons I just want to say "Look, there is another road" rather than "You must take this other road" is because I came to the issue late, ie after my babies had had their infant vaccinations. So completely unvaccinated is not a road I have travelled. I would do it that way, now: but as I didn't, I am not in any position to say that it worked for me.

Which would be condemned as anecdotal anyway....

both choices have risks, that is all.

Plainly do not do them any more and have travelled widely. I don't do malaria tabs either. Not complacent, I've looked into it and made my choice.

Ruty my previous post might have implied you were complacent in another way, which I didn't mean to do.

Everyone gets shot down by somebody. If there can't be open discussion between mothers without people getting really angry and defensive what hope is there? I hate the accusation of scare-mongering, it's so Orwellian. Sometimes the information is troubling but it doesn't mean it should be squished out of sight.

X-posted..

interesting blisteringbarnacles. But if your children have had basic infant jabs then presumably they won't be at risk of something like polio when you travel anyway. A totally unvaccinated child may be.

Anyway, if yurt1 is reading this, sorry, I didn't mean to speak for you about your ds1, and didn't mean to assume anything about what triggered his autism, I know it was very complex. Sorry.

Watching an unvaccinated child die of an illness that is preventable made me have no hesitation in having my own DD's vaccinated.
I will never forget watching that baby die.

where was that Cali, in the UK? Very sad.

Yes it was in the UK.
1st was 12 years ago in a sick childrens where I was working and have also seen babies affected by illnesses that could have been prevented if their mothers had not come into contact with unvaccinated children during their pregnancies. One baby died after several months of suffering.

?Dr. Mayer Eisenstein, told us he is not aware of any cases of autism in never-vaccinated children.?. So that would imply that autism is caused only by vaxination?

But according to

?The condition of autism was first recognized in the 1940s by Leo Kanner in the USA.? What were we vaxinating against back then? Not polio as far as I?m aware, my aunt had it in the 50s so would imagine not, and definitely not mmr as that wasn?t introduced until the 80s. So the argument that only children who have been vaxinated develop autism is a load of bollocks.

However, the arguments for/pro vaxination really are not black and white. Children who have auto immune disorders are certainly considered to be at higher risk of developing certain conditions following vaxination, and IMO the parents of these children should be entitled to make the decision not to vaxinate their children based on the research into their individual circumstances, and the arguments for not vaxinating children with auto immune disorders should be more widely published and should be acknowledge by healthcare professionals in order that those parents can make the decision that is right for them.

But scaremongering people whose children are most likely not at risk by publishing articles such as the one in the op is neither helpful nor informative. If a parent has no previous experience of autism, and many peple do not, in the same way as they have no experience of other disability, then reading something like ?If I have a child with autism come in, there's no communication. It's frightening. You can't touch them.? Will leave them thinking that if they vaxinate their child they will turn into a child with whom they will never again be able to communicate. Does that inform people of the risks/benefits of vaxination? Absolutely not.

People should be able to make their own choices, but they should make them based on the actual facts out there, not on the scaremongering crap published all over the internet. The facts should be made more widely available, and choices should be more flexible, based on circumstance.

And as an aside, based on that article, I would hazard a guess that the ?doctor? in question may well have encountered autism in unvaxinated children, given that his benchmark for autism is the untouchable, uncommunicative child, when this is clearly not the case.

oops forgot to insert link

My father had polio at 18.

It ruined his chances of university.

In old age he seems to be in extreme discomfort from a post-polio-syndrome-type-thing.

He didn't have the life he deserved, having survived WW2 in London.

I volunteered my daughter for an ongoing test of new polio and diptheria vaccines. She has been involved in the test for about 5 years now.

WannaBe your tone is immature but there you go. It's a free forum.

May I correct you. Autism was first described by Leo Kanner in 1938.

and

"Thimerosal is an inorganic mercury compound that is metabolized to ethylmercury and thiosalicylate and has been present since the 1930?s as a preservative in some vaccines and pharmaceutical products to prevent bacterial and fungal contamination".

i don't think all autism is caused by vaccination. i think thimerosal in vaccines [now thankfully taken out] could have well been the trigger for many and there are a couple of small studies which confirm that. And remember Wakefield was suggesting that MMR may be a trigger for only 8% of all autism cases, so again he was not suggesting it was responsible for all autism, and that is only caused problems for a relatively small number of children.

Another use of mercury [thimerosal] which looks like it may have been a trigger for autism is anti-d injections in rhesus negative pregnant women. why they don't take it out is scandalous. One autism specialist has said that about half the mothers that attend his conferences were rhesus negative and had the anti-d injections.

austism probably has an incredibly complex evolution and many, many, triggers. It may well be linked to our increasingly industrialised and polluted lives, vaccines are only a part of that, and of course many children are not susceptible, but more research needs to be done into which groups are.

"Thimerosal is an inorganic mercury compound that is metabolized to ethylmercury and thiosalicylate and has been present since the 1930?s as a preservative in some vaccines and pharmaceutical products to prevent bacterial and fungal contamination".

but nooka said it wasn't present since 2004

"If more children are not vaccinated by choice, they will then outnumber the vaccinated non-immune. You are then asking a larger number of children to take a risk for the sake of a smaller number of children. But why is the health of the smaller number of children more important than the health of that larger number of children, when the health status of both groups is otherwise the same?"

nooooooooooooo the parents can make the choice for the smaller number of children - becuase the rest of us vaccinate and therefore the risk is minimal.

the diptheria -cobra thing applies here too.

i dont understand why you dont understand this concept.

there is a disease

a high proportion of children are vaccinated against it

the disease is very rare

yes custardo thimerosal was taken out of infant vaccines in 2004. It should have been taken out much earlier and is still present in anti-d jabs given to pregnant women.

Certainly it does seem that when vaccination rates dropped in Russia diptheria reappeared [in the 90's] But then the public health sytem had deteriorated so much it was much more easily spread [thinking of things like clean water adequate sewage, clean hospitals etc] Impossible to know what might happen somewhere like here, b

yes custardo thimerosal was taken out of infant vaccines in 2004. It should have been taken out much earlier and is still present in anti-d jabs given to pregnant women.

Certainly it does seem that when vaccination rates dropped in Russia diptheria reappeared [in the 90's] But then the public health sytem had deteriorated so much it was much more easily spread [thinking of things like clean water adequate sewage, clean hospitals etc] Impossible to know what might happen somewhere like here, b

...but not something to be complacent about agree.

No, Nooka said it was taken out in 2004. Which is true of most vaccines, but not all -- for example the flu vaccine.

I understand you think people don't vaccinate because we think we're safe. But that's not the thinking for me, I don't know about others. I would like my children to have the opportunity of exposure. Mumps for example has a protective effect against ovarian cancer. In boys, it's very dangerous during and after the teenage years. I would much rather they had it when younger. I'd like my daughter to acquire rubella immunity naturally, as it lasts for ever too.

But anyhow it makes no difference to my analysis of herd immunity.

Don't ascribe disease decline to vaccination only. It's a mistake.

I read your "wasn't present since 2004" wrongly

Not sure why Wannabe should be labelled immature. Seems a little unfair to me, but there we go. It's a pity that more effort isn't put into research, understanding, treatment and support for those with autism and their families. I have two close family members who have autism and know it can be devastating. Clearly it is multifactorial, and a lot of the current research is into early identification and genetic markers which may help a better understanding. It's just too simplistic to say that because some cases of autism show symptoms at about the same time as MMR jabs are given that therefore the one causes the other. Apart from the fact it hasn't been proved, even for the possible small sub-set of children who may be more vulnerable it isn't very helpful because there is little that anyone can do to identify those children apart from existing family history. Also the hypothesis that single jabs are in any way less harmful is just that. A hypothesis (and I have yet to see any authoritative oppinion from immunologists supporting it). So parents are left with a difficult choice with little good evidence on which to make their decision.

I read your "wasn't present since 2004" wrongly

Just using words like bollocks and scare-mongering crap. it's demonstrates a fear of debate.