Vaccination uptake rates

[Gobbledigook]

For those interested, here is site where you can find out the vaccination uptake rate for your area.

MMR uptake for London is frightening.

PS - Not intending to start an argument about it btw, just linking it in for interest.

vaccinationuptakeforyourarea

[Socci]

Message withdrawn

[coppertop]

The only time I've seen the batch numbers recorded was when ds1 had his 2nd DTP and his DT in hospital. The HVs don't seem to bother with things like that. Then again my HV didn't even bother to look at ds1's records at all. Despite me phoning ahead and arranging for ds1 to have the last of their DT(without the P) supply she had the DTP ready to give him, just before trying to give him his second dose of MMR in 2 weeks! It was pure luck that dh and I bothered to check.

[Socci]

Message withdrawn

[Angeliz]

DD wouldn't show up for various ones as i've gone slightly astray from the norm for a few so she's probably donw as a no show!

[Angeliz]

coppertop, my dd had a booster a week ago and i had to ask the H.V to write down the batch number!! (EVEN though it's written on the book she's just signed!!)

[coppertop]

According to ds1's notes he had "a mild adverse reaction" to DTP. It makes it sound as though he had a bit of a temperature or something. He stopped breathing - TWICE!!!

How can anyone monitor these things if no accurate records are being kept?

[Socci]

Message withdrawn

[Gobbledigook]

Socci - sorry, I have to confess I'm not well up on the mercury in DTP issue.

With regard to vaccines - GPs should report ADRs (Adverse Drug Reactions) to vaccines as they would for any other drug. Which ones they should report depends on the drug/vaccine (it also depends on whether the doctor believes there is a causal association and that's down to his medical judgement - though many report things that are clearly not causal or that are very well recognised and non-serious). If the drug still has its 'black triangle' (ie when it's new - it has a little inverted black triangle next to the brand name in the BNF and MIMMS) then ALL reactions should be reported, however minor. Once the drug is more established (and therefore, theoretically, so is it's safety) then only serious reactions need to be reported. Before a drug has its black triangle removed, a massive review of all the literature pertaining to that drug and the ADRs that have been reported since it was launched, is carried out - some drugs stay on black triangle longer than others. The black triangle is not removed until it is felt that there are no safety issues that need to be addressed.

If you have ever seen a 'Yellow Card' (the form that ADRs are reported on - can be found in back of BNF, MIMMS and on FP10 prescription pads), you'll see there is a box to record batch numbers. It is up to the nurse/doctor to record this and if the Yellow Card arrives without this info for vaccines, the report is followed up with the reporter to find that out if at all possible.

So, in brief answer to your points - the GP is wrong - he should be reporting ADRs to vaccines and the batch number should always be included.

Must admit, the batch no. is not recorded in any of ds's red books either. Perhaps it's recorded on the surgery computer system so that if they needed to go back and find it out, the info would be there??

[Gobbledigook]

CT - that doesn't sound like a mild reaction to me. If it was so severe that he stopped breathing it sounds more like an anaphylaxis type reaction and that most definitely should be reported.

Unfortunately, the Yellow Card Scheme for reporting ADRs relies on health professionals bothering to report so it's up to the individual health professional whether they decide to or not. This of course means that the Yellow Card Scheme has no denominator although when looking at the number of ADRs, they can be put into some context by looking at prescription data.

When reports are looked at, all the other info is taken into consideration too like what concomitant medication the pt might have been on (because of course some drugs interact), their previous medical history or family medical history etc etc.

BTW, can HV give jabs???? I didn't think they could but it seems I'm wrong. Wouldn't want any of my HV to do it!!!!

[coppertop]

At our surgery the HV does the vaccinations with an assistant.

The problem we faced the first time around was that ds1 stopped breathing exactly 6 hours after the vaccine rather than straightaway. The Paediatrician knew that we were moving to another city and wrote us a referral letter to our new hospital asking that the 2nd DTP be given under observation as he was fairly sure it was the cause of it. Ds1 hadn't been given any medication since he was 5 days old (antibiotics).

The 2nd hospital told us it was unlikely that someone would react so long after the jab but agreed to the observation. Again it was exactly 6 hours later that he stopped breathing. The doctor on call originally wanted ds1 to be tested for allergies to any of the objects used for vaccination, eg the swabs, the latex gloves etc but the Consultant overruled this as he'd encountered a similar case where the child was actually allergic to the pertussis element. Again ds1 hadn't been using any other medication. He was rarely ill as a baby.

The 3rd time around ds1 was given just the Diptheria, polio and tetanus elements (in hospital) and there was no reaction. Same again for the 1st MMR.

Even after going through all this the HV still wanted to know why we didn't want ds1 to have the pre-school DTP!

[Twiglett]

I thought 80% is too low for herd immunity

And also the big problem is in dealing with the population as a whole .. what may be right for 99.9% of babies may just not be right for mine (who has genetic history of fairly severe auto-immunity disease through DH) .. so would I take the kind of chance where there's a 0.0000000002% chance (made up stat ) that this might provide a trigger to this kind of illness for my children .. no I damn well won't

As has oft been said (like it? quite lyrical I thought) on these threads the money put into advertising the MMR could more effectively been used to fund an individualised vaccination programme rooting out those children most at risk of a potential adverse reaction.

I fought tooth and nail, as some people might recall, for DTaP for my DD .. took 6 weeks of letters, phone calls, visits, my providing most recent research and I was still being told there was nothing they could do .. Guess what 2 days after DD's first DTaP jab they announced the 5 in one

[MistressMary]

I think the HV administers the jabs in our surgery.
After a discussion with her and my understandings of the vaccines though she wasn't fully aware of what ingredients there were in jabs! Anyhow she obviously isn't pestering me now as she knows I have done a bit of research.

Surely if you are handling these drugs and administering them, then you should have knowledge about them??

[Jimjams]

Gobbledigook have you read the Columbia paper published in June (Hornig, Chian and Lipkin- Molecular Psychiatry). If you want a copy email me offlist. It probably describes the biochemical situation with our son. it's nice you have such faith in the authorities, but then you haven't had to listen to robot man from the dept of health come on to your TV screen and tell you that thimerosil in vaccines is perfectly safe at the same time as your non-verbal 5 year old son is stimming in front of the TV. I used to think that the authorities had everyone's best interests at heart as well- but then I got my own piece of collaterol damage (and no recognition for it or attempt at recognition).

I was not a natural health type of person. I have PhD in genetics and truly truly truly believed in the vaccination programme. I cringe when I think of myself 5 years ago. Now I've read the original research, read the crap that comes out of the dept of health and know that they are not remotely interested in my child, they don't care that he will never live independently and they don't care about the others like them. Vocal???? Not half vocal enough.

At least they have taken thimerosil out of vaccines- even if they won't admit why. DS1 should have been born Australian - he wouldn't have receievd thimerosil then- by the time he was born Aus had removed it from all peadiatric vaccines as they didn't believe it was safe.

The MMR's only affecting tiny numbers of children- so who cares anyway right? (BTW- my friend's dd who regressed following the MMR- and who has been told - off record- by her paed that her autism was quite possibly caused by MMR- has not had her severe seizures occuring days after the jab recorded as an adverse reaction).

[Jimjams]

Anyway very unlike me- but I'm giving everyone a rest and bowing out of vaccination discussions for the moment I think (happy to carry on pointing anyone in the direction of info though and answering any factual questions I can).

Too pregnant, too much going on with ds1 at the moment (please anyone who cares keep you fingers crossed for us for Wednesday- he goes to panel for a special school place- also keep your fingers crossed for tomorrow- we're visting and I'm a bit worried he'll refuse to go in- I need the head onside! If he gets the place it will make such a huge difference to us all- if he doesn't get a place I have no idea what we will do).

This is always going to be more than an interesting discussion to me - and I don't wish to carry on "shouting people down". It's quite clear that gobbledigook and I are never going to agree anyway- so a graceful retirement. As usual I'd recommend Randall Neudstaedter's The Vaccination Guide as the most balanced book on the pros and cons of vaccination. Well referenced as well- and even has an endorsement from a conventional paeditrician on the back.

[Twiglett]

I shall have everything crossed for you and DS

[Angeliz]

Fingers crossed jimjams+

[JoolsToo]

Look - I'm not a pharmacologist - I don't even pretend to know what half of you are talking about - all I know is this...

I am worried that a combined vaccine MAY harm my child - please may I have single vaccines, I know you are trying to reassure me but I'm still not convinced, I know I may be being silly but it really worries me so if you'd like to help me sleep at night and ensure that I'll get my children vaccinated - you really will have to offer me the single vaccines - thanks!

What's the bloody problem? (Sorry GDG - I STILL think you should be offered single vaccine it thats what you want)

[Socci]

Message withdrawn

[Gobbledigook]

Twiglett (7.43pm) - I wholeheartedly agree with you. Maybe I didn't make that clear but what you say makes perfect sense.

JimJams - I cannot even being to imagine what you have been through. Of course I care about you and your little boy, please don't think I don't (and I've everything crossed for you btw).

I'd be interested in reading the paper so will CAT you if that's OK?

TBH, yes, I feel assured that there is no current evidence to link MMR to autism (at least from the CSM point of view because I'm familiar with the processes and the people personally), but that doesn't mean that I don't think further research should be done to find out if there is something that pre-disposes certain children to developing autism and whether something in MMR triggers that. I know it's incredibly easy for me to say when my children have, so far, been unaffected by any vaccine, but I'm not sure what else can be done (bar that above) if all the available evidence has been reviewed and nothing can link the two.

[Jimjams]

not in London anymore lockets...... (used to live in Bromley but we needed more help with ds1 so moved back to Devon to be near my family).

JoolsToo- there isn't much published info on multiple vaccinations - it's a problem. They do now know that anthrax given in combination can be a problem! There may also be an increase in what is known as Th2 tyoe cells in susceptible individuals (and here comes the link with autoimmunity again). If you type Th2 vaccination into google you'll get some info.

Socci- I'm more than happy to email you the Columbia paper. Basically it took 3 strains of mice and gave them thimerosil, or thimerosil + vaccination or a control soultion (salts). They found that 2 of the strains were fine- but the third strain showed autistic like behaviours (watching washing machines???? ) when given thimerosil or thimerosil + vacc. This third strain is known to be prone to autoimmunity. From my point of view it was particularly interesting that this third strain showed structural changes to the glutamate receptors in the brain- as we have to be very careful with ds1 and glutamate.

There is much less evidence of the problems of autoimmunity and multiple vaccinations- although its worth looking at Th2 cells- not well understood at all yet though.

I'm sticking to factual stuff! Thanks for the good wishes for tomorrow and Wednesday.

Oh and I meant to say Steiner schools are run on the Steiner Waldorf philosophy- there are quite a few in the UK (loads in Germany). In the UK at least many of the people who use them also tend to be very into natural health stuff and tend not to vaccinate (last time I visited a school I sat in a room with 5 other mums and the only one with a vaccinated child was me- with ds1!)

[Jimjams]

Feel free to CAT me gobbledigook.

Re MMR- I don't know if you realise that people like Wakefield, Shattock etc think about 7% of cases of autism are triggered by MMR (and they do use the word triggered rather than caused). This number is far too small to be picked up by epidemiological studies. This subgroup does show physiological differences and different histories from other autistic children - and then there's the gut disease as well. And of course thew vaccine strain measles virus in the guts and spinal fluid.

The Sunderland Univeristy stuff is worth reading through- - Autism Research Unit typed into google will get you there- the urinary profiles of MMR damaged children is different from other autistic children (in fact the first thing Paul Shattock said to me when I rang him to discuss my son was "well he doesn't look as if he's MMR damaged"- I replied that I never thought he was as he hadn't had it! (had single measles- but regression started earlier anyway).

[Socci]

Message withdrawn

[Jimjams]

CAT me socci so I have your email address!

[Socci]

Message withdrawn