Vaccination uptake rates

[Gobbledigook]

For those interested, here is site where you can find out the vaccination uptake rate for your area.

MMR uptake for London is frightening.

PS - Not intending to start an argument about it btw, just linking it in for interest.

vaccinationuptakeforyourarea

[Jimjams]

Yeah I was thinking of that Twiglett . Did say I'd answer factual stuff though (that's my defence). Can't do the justification side of it at the moment though!!

BTW for anyone on the MMR thread from the weekend- no reply from Brian Deer yet.

[Twiglett]

You seem to have 'bowed out' of this vaccination thread very gracefully there JimJams

[Jimjams]

This is kind of interesting when you look at the effect of having anthrax and pertussis vaccination- although clearly the original data needs to be seen. Aloha knows more about this than me though.

[Jimjams]

Walsh in the states is worth looking at as well. He has found that metallothionein proteins don't function well in 99% of autistics. Particularly interesting as they are involved in heavy metal tranpsort - however he also points out that they are involved in the immune response to viruses so could play a role in MMR problems (more than additive effect of 3 at once?) but that's a long way from being anything but a suggestion.

Of course could be that measles is as much of a problem by itself anyway. The rise in autism cases matches intro of MMR but almost certainly isn't due to it - except in a small number of cases. When they introduced MMR they altered the timing of the thimerosil containing jabs anyway.

One thing that has always struck me (but never seen it anywhere else so this is just me thinking out loud) is that they give MMR at a young age- traditionally (for want of a better word) most measles cases occurred after the age of 2 and before the age of 8. Catching measles earlier (especially in infancy- and now they give MMR at 13 months!) is known to be a risk factor in developing the hideous brain disease SSPE. It is now accepted that in rare cases MMR can cause SSPE (initially this was denied). Maybe we're introducing the measles virus into everyone too young and so risking brain damage. Who knows?

[Jimjams]

Not known- one past suggestion was that the mumps vaccine altered the permeability of the blood brain barrier - allowing measles to end up where it shouldn't be. Not sure if anyone is looking at that now or not (would be interesting though as many autistics have membranes that are leaky). It was also thought for a while that catching (wild type) chickenpox in close proximity to MMR increased the risk of a reaction. It does seem to increase the risk but not significantly. I think that catching wild type mumps and chickenpox may significantly increase the risk of becoming autistic though- not sure whether those figures are still deemed reliable.

Anthrax is now accepted as being a problem in the development of gulf war syndrome- and the problems arise when it is given in combination with other vaccines- not sure they know why- but the MOD advised that where possible for GW2 vaccinations should be given singly. The gulf war stuff is interesting as there are biochemical similarities between gulf war vets with the syndrome and autistics (have a look on the autism research unit homepage for a few links).

Lots more work is needed before its understood. Bad reactions have been recorded following single measles jab (my aunt cares for someone brain damaged following the measles jab) just in seemingly lower numbers. Not sure autistic enterocolitis has been recorded in anyone receiving just measles though.

[Gobbledigook]

Jimjams - forgive my ignorance then, but if the strains in the single jabs are the same as in the MMR, why would a child suffer a reaction from the combined and not the single (since it's hypothesised that the effect is from the measles virus itself - is that not the same in both?)

[Jimjams]

can't spell!

[Jimjams]

Gobbledegook the single jabs aren't licensed as the manufacturers haven't applied to renew licences (or at least that's what a dept of health official told me years ago- can't remember the details- but have the letter somewhere- it was beurocracy rather than safety though). The actual vaccines used are exactly the same strains as are used in the combined jab.

Sounds interesting Aloha- inflammation and autism go together anyway.

[aloha]

The mumps vaccine importation block is nothing to do with safety - otherwise none of it would be allowed in! It's entirely safe but the rationing is political.
Jimjams, I was reading something last night about a connection with glutamate and inflammation. It's in a book by a doctor who specialises in skincare, Dr Perricone, so it's all about ageing and inflammation. I thought of you.

[Socci]

Message withdrawn

[Jimjams]

CAT me socci so I have your email address!

[Socci]

Message withdrawn

[Jimjams]

Feel free to CAT me gobbledigook.

Re MMR- I don't know if you realise that people like Wakefield, Shattock etc think about 7% of cases of autism are triggered by MMR (and they do use the word triggered rather than caused). This number is far too small to be picked up by epidemiological studies. This subgroup does show physiological differences and different histories from other autistic children - and then there's the gut disease as well. And of course thew vaccine strain measles virus in the guts and spinal fluid.

The Sunderland Univeristy stuff is worth reading through- - Autism Research Unit typed into google will get you there- the urinary profiles of MMR damaged children is different from other autistic children (in fact the first thing Paul Shattock said to me when I rang him to discuss my son was "well he doesn't look as if he's MMR damaged"- I replied that I never thought he was as he hadn't had it! (had single measles- but regression started earlier anyway).

[Jimjams]

not in London anymore lockets...... (used to live in Bromley but we needed more help with ds1 so moved back to Devon to be near my family).

JoolsToo- there isn't much published info on multiple vaccinations - it's a problem. They do now know that anthrax given in combination can be a problem! There may also be an increase in what is known as Th2 tyoe cells in susceptible individuals (and here comes the link with autoimmunity again). If you type Th2 vaccination into google you'll get some info.

Socci- I'm more than happy to email you the Columbia paper. Basically it took 3 strains of mice and gave them thimerosil, or thimerosil + vaccination or a control soultion (salts). They found that 2 of the strains were fine- but the third strain showed autistic like behaviours (watching washing machines???? ) when given thimerosil or thimerosil + vacc. This third strain is known to be prone to autoimmunity. From my point of view it was particularly interesting that this third strain showed structural changes to the glutamate receptors in the brain- as we have to be very careful with ds1 and glutamate.

There is much less evidence of the problems of autoimmunity and multiple vaccinations- although its worth looking at Th2 cells- not well understood at all yet though.

I'm sticking to factual stuff! Thanks for the good wishes for tomorrow and Wednesday.

Oh and I meant to say Steiner schools are run on the Steiner Waldorf philosophy- there are quite a few in the UK (loads in Germany). In the UK at least many of the people who use them also tend to be very into natural health stuff and tend not to vaccinate (last time I visited a school I sat in a room with 5 other mums and the only one with a vaccinated child was me- with ds1!)

[Gobbledigook]

Twiglett (7.43pm) - I wholeheartedly agree with you. Maybe I didn't make that clear but what you say makes perfect sense.

JimJams - I cannot even being to imagine what you have been through. Of course I care about you and your little boy, please don't think I don't (and I've everything crossed for you btw).

I'd be interested in reading the paper so will CAT you if that's OK?

TBH, yes, I feel assured that there is no current evidence to link MMR to autism (at least from the CSM point of view because I'm familiar with the processes and the people personally), but that doesn't mean that I don't think further research should be done to find out if there is something that pre-disposes certain children to developing autism and whether something in MMR triggers that. I know it's incredibly easy for me to say when my children have, so far, been unaffected by any vaccine, but I'm not sure what else can be done (bar that above) if all the available evidence has been reviewed and nothing can link the two.

[Socci]

Message withdrawn

[JoolsToo]

Look - I'm not a pharmacologist - I don't even pretend to know what half of you are talking about - all I know is this...

I am worried that a combined vaccine MAY harm my child - please may I have single vaccines, I know you are trying to reassure me but I'm still not convinced, I know I may be being silly but it really worries me so if you'd like to help me sleep at night and ensure that I'll get my children vaccinated - you really will have to offer me the single vaccines - thanks!

What's the bloody problem? (Sorry GDG - I STILL think you should be offered single vaccine it thats what you want)

[Angeliz]

Fingers crossed jimjams+

[Twiglett]

I shall have everything crossed for you and DS

[Jimjams]

Anyway very unlike me- but I'm giving everyone a rest and bowing out of vaccination discussions for the moment I think (happy to carry on pointing anyone in the direction of info though and answering any factual questions I can).

Too pregnant, too much going on with ds1 at the moment (please anyone who cares keep you fingers crossed for us for Wednesday- he goes to panel for a special school place- also keep your fingers crossed for tomorrow- we're visting and I'm a bit worried he'll refuse to go in- I need the head onside! If he gets the place it will make such a huge difference to us all- if he doesn't get a place I have no idea what we will do).

This is always going to be more than an interesting discussion to me - and I don't wish to carry on "shouting people down". It's quite clear that gobbledigook and I are never going to agree anyway- so a graceful retirement. As usual I'd recommend Randall Neudstaedter's The Vaccination Guide as the most balanced book on the pros and cons of vaccination. Well referenced as well- and even has an endorsement from a conventional paeditrician on the back.

[Jimjams]

Gobbledigook have you read the Columbia paper published in June (Hornig, Chian and Lipkin- Molecular Psychiatry). If you want a copy email me offlist. It probably describes the biochemical situation with our son. it's nice you have such faith in the authorities, but then you haven't had to listen to robot man from the dept of health come on to your TV screen and tell you that thimerosil in vaccines is perfectly safe at the same time as your non-verbal 5 year old son is stimming in front of the TV. I used to think that the authorities had everyone's best interests at heart as well- but then I got my own piece of collaterol damage (and no recognition for it or attempt at recognition).

I was not a natural health type of person. I have PhD in genetics and truly truly truly believed in the vaccination programme. I cringe when I think of myself 5 years ago. Now I've read the original research, read the crap that comes out of the dept of health and know that they are not remotely interested in my child, they don't care that he will never live independently and they don't care about the others like them. Vocal???? Not half vocal enough.

At least they have taken thimerosil out of vaccines- even if they won't admit why. DS1 should have been born Australian - he wouldn't have receievd thimerosil then- by the time he was born Aus had removed it from all peadiatric vaccines as they didn't believe it was safe.

The MMR's only affecting tiny numbers of children- so who cares anyway right? (BTW- my friend's dd who regressed following the MMR- and who has been told - off record- by her paed that her autism was quite possibly caused by MMR- has not had her severe seizures occuring days after the jab recorded as an adverse reaction).

[MistressMary]

I think the HV administers the jabs in our surgery.
After a discussion with her and my understandings of the vaccines though she wasn't fully aware of what ingredients there were in jabs! Anyhow she obviously isn't pestering me now as she knows I have done a bit of research.

Surely if you are handling these drugs and administering them, then you should have knowledge about them??

[Twiglett]

I thought 80% is too low for herd immunity

And also the big problem is in dealing with the population as a whole .. what may be right for 99.9% of babies may just not be right for mine (who has genetic history of fairly severe auto-immunity disease through DH) .. so would I take the kind of chance where there's a 0.0000000002% chance (made up stat ) that this might provide a trigger to this kind of illness for my children .. no I damn well won't

As has oft been said (like it? quite lyrical I thought) on these threads the money put into advertising the MMR could more effectively been used to fund an individualised vaccination programme rooting out those children most at risk of a potential adverse reaction.

I fought tooth and nail, as some people might recall, for DTaP for my DD .. took 6 weeks of letters, phone calls, visits, my providing most recent research and I was still being told there was nothing they could do .. Guess what 2 days after DD's first DTaP jab they announced the 5 in one

[coppertop]

At our surgery the HV does the vaccinations with an assistant.

The problem we faced the first time around was that ds1 stopped breathing exactly 6 hours after the vaccine rather than straightaway. The Paediatrician knew that we were moving to another city and wrote us a referral letter to our new hospital asking that the 2nd DTP be given under observation as he was fairly sure it was the cause of it. Ds1 hadn't been given any medication since he was 5 days old (antibiotics).

The 2nd hospital told us it was unlikely that someone would react so long after the jab but agreed to the observation. Again it was exactly 6 hours later that he stopped breathing. The doctor on call originally wanted ds1 to be tested for allergies to any of the objects used for vaccination, eg the swabs, the latex gloves etc but the Consultant overruled this as he'd encountered a similar case where the child was actually allergic to the pertussis element. Again ds1 hadn't been using any other medication. He was rarely ill as a baby.

The 3rd time around ds1 was given just the Diptheria, polio and tetanus elements (in hospital) and there was no reaction. Same again for the 1st MMR.

Even after going through all this the HV still wanted to know why we didn't want ds1 to have the pre-school DTP!