What were your reasons for not vaccinating your child?

[Londonmamma]

I don't think we've done this for a while and I like to keep up to date on the vaccination issue so - fire away!

Sniff, I do really mean it. You are obviously a parent and you must have worried about doing the MMR. I don't have my full family history and am thinking about giving Ds this jab now. His immune system is buggered, we are seeing a paed on the 7th June.

UCM- anyone would., My mum is deaf in one ear from measles. She was very pro-vax. She changed her mind after ds1. yes she;s deaf in one ear, but she's done everything she ever wanted to do,ds1 won't.

Flamesparrow- yes- the high pitched scream can indicate encephalitis/brain swelling. I don't know how well you get on with your GP, but I think most doctors would take that seriously, and asnwer your questions (which I think would be perfectly vaild after those sorts of reactions). When ds3 was in hospital last November the consultants he saw were surprised he hadn't had any vacinations at all, and they asked me my reasons, but they weren't patronising or lecturing, they just discussed it, and what happened to ds1.

I truly believe its a hard desicion to make because as just parents we dont really have all the facts
reding what everyone has written is frightening

can i just say that i am totally heartened by the tone of this thread.

sophable - you said: "She posits that the huge increase in conditions such as eczema and Asthma may be linked vaccination. Most importantly for me, when she saw us, she suggested that ds (then ten months old, and having developed eczema) come off cows milk. Neither of the GPs we saw suggested this, they immediately prescribed steroid cream. His eczema vanished as soon as we cut cows milk out of his diet".

Many world experts recommend that cow's milk, including formula milk, should not be included in the diet of an infant under the age of 1. Introducing it too early increases the risk of allergies, esp. where there is a family history of allergy.

so you give a clue as to the HUGE increase in eczema and asthma in your own post. No one knows the exact root causes of these allergies, but many experts suggest it is dairy and products such as formula milk derived from cow's milk. There is absolutley no evidence that the increase in atopic allergies are due primarily to vaccinations, in most cases they are due to allergens introduced into an infant's diet.

Thank you - I will get an appointment. Where he has always done it (and DD did too, but not for as long each time) I sort of assumed that it was a "normal" side effect (Along with "mild fever" etc).

His temp is never any use for showing them that he is reacting to it - he is a naturally cool child so it doesn't show as being up to them.

ooh opoh ooh you need to read the Gut article. Basically new model- leaky gut, "stuff" gets thorugh (big culprits being gluten and cows milk- especially for things like diabetes- google A1 and A2 for more subtelty) then you get autoimmunity. Wakefield's theory these days actually takes account of this stuff.

yup yellowrose, point taken.

doesn't take away from the fact that i'd have been slathering steriod cream all over him unnecessarily had i taken my gps advice. nor does it take away from the trust that i felt when she helped me in that way and in countless others..

KM- given your family histpry you look stuck between a rock and a hard place. In your situation I'd be looking at the risk of deafness following measles infection, but I;d also take into account that I had to be able to live withouth constant anxiety (this is my thing with tetanus- ds2 and ds3 not being vaccinated against tetanus does induce anxiety in me). I'd weigh all that up against single jabs. Without being in your situation (so recognising that it might be different if I was actually in your shoes), then I;d be seriously looking into the single measles jab. Final decision would come down to my belief in the likelihood of deafness following measles vs my belief in the safety of the measles jab for my family history.

nope kerry mum- we x p[osted, but the last one was!

sophable - she obviously helped you - but be aware of health gurus, even the ones who sound like they know what they are talking about

KM- yes i know what you mean, ds3 has had repeated ear infections/burst ear drums (6 since November!) so I have the same concerns (and ds2 had whooping cough and asthmatic tendencies so he's a measles nightmare as well).

Kerrymum I don't know to be honest

yellowrose she isn't a health guru, she is a classically trained homeopath, who has also studied a lot of conventional medicine.

the reason i trust her (not completely, nor unquestioningly) is through repeated experience.

she has never said that we shouldn't vaccinate ds. she has also acknowledged the anxiety of non-vaccination.

I do go to the GP too!! and they have never given me a hard time about not vaccinating, interestingly enough.

however they have singularly failed to treat the balanitis and impetigo that ds and I respective suffered where our homeopath had immediate effects (on the first count in terms of advice and on the second in terms of homeopathic remedies).

she isn't god. but she is earning my trust.

no worries sophable, i hate gp's i avoid the nhs like the plague, doctors "killed" a close relative in an nhs hospital due to something totally prevetable that wasn't diagnosed properly. i hate medics, although my grandfather was a fab, wonderful surgeon, one of a kind though. i don't trust most of them.

I think that as a concept, vaccination is brilliant. I think that the way it was discovered, and the fact that it works is a tribute to modern science. But, like everything else, the good that it can do has been distorted by capitalism and the moneymakers.
I think its strange and wrong that the vaccination that are apparently necessary at a certain age, suddenly arent anymore (here in Japan, a "necessary" booster at 14 suddenly became no longer necessary for some reason ). I think its bad that they add mercury (sp?) to the vaccination. I think its <span class="italic">really</span> bad that we cant have an honest report about the risks, because of all the stakeholders.
I never thought of the idea that diseases tend to run their course too (scarlet fever). So we dont know even if the vaccinations are necessary or not. I think that the effect of vaccinating healthy kids against not so deadly diseases (measles) is likely to have bad effects on society because I do think that kids immune systems need to be built with "wild" measles. There are no free lunches. So because Ive actually had measles and German measles, my baby will receive good immunities from me and my breastmilk. Whereas if shes vaccinated, and doesn`t actually have the disease, how safe is her baby going to be?

sakura says "I th0ink that the effect of vaccinating healthy kids against not so deadly diseases (measles) is likely to have bad effects on society because I do think that kids` immune systems need to be built with "wild" measles."

WHY?

what is the evidence for immunity boots from measles?

fair enough repeated small exposures might boot against MEASLES but if there is low presence of it in the population generally (do to vaccination), chances of catching measles will be low anyway.

Is there any evidence for a more generalisaed benefit to the immune system from measles?

Too much to read to comment on most of this but I stopped reading after kellysmum - studies of risk when MMR was cultivated in egg, saving that it isn't allergy to egg that is the problem www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/320/7239/929

www.clinicalanswers.nhs.uk/index.cfm?question=3704

Sakura has a problem with capitalism. Perhaps she'd like to share with us the cures invented in socialist countries. Take your time...
Vaccination was created as a money making deal, Jenner did well. Penicillin was barely viable as a treatment until one of the great robber barons, Carnegie funded it.

What should be applied to children and well is quite amazingly complex, and our understanding of it changes rapidly, so it's not that unreasonable.

Mercury is used in the preparation of MMR ?
..and your point is ?
Medicines are hugely toxic things, the byproducts are really nasty (remember Thalidomide ?) and hugely stringent checks and processes are used to stop the crap getting in. Happens of course, but if you're worried about a gross toxin like mercury, there's a list a mile long for you.

I do agree that the information we get is often dishonest. But that's mostly not the drug companies in this country who are stringently regulated. GMTV, the BBC and vendors of homoepatthic rip offs get away with far more.

Your idea that diseases should run their course is a candidate for the most stupid thing I've read online in the last few years.
We have really ample evidence for that. It's called "death". You obviously have no idea of any science, but have you ever wondered why life expectancy has doubled ?

I pity your baby if you genuinely believe you've made it immune to anything. The term is "resistance", not "immune".
Has no one ever used the word "mutate" to you ? Did you just think it was geeky ?
Diseases change, frequently.

Fillyjonk- there's an alternative health idea that measles in particular somehow matures the immune system. I'm not sure about that myself (although there has been work into catching childhood infections/being vaccinated and childhood leukaemia rates). I think it's an interesting idea- us western europeans have had a long history of co-evolution with measles.

I do have the same concern as Sakura re breastfeeding/passing on passive immunity to infants. I wonder whether any studies have looked at the adult antibody levels for things like measles comparing vaccinated vs naturally aquired infection. I really wouldn't want to have to give MMR to tiny babies (the reason its given past a year is because geenrally babies have maternal p[assive protection beforehand). I suppose the answer would be adult boosters.

mercury isn't used in the MMR. It used to be in the DTP- the UK was the last country in the western world to remove it. 6 years after Australia removed it. They eventually removed it after the WHO recommended its removal. There was evidence that it was possibly causing harm going back many years.

Why was it in there? Becuase mercury contiaing shots were approx a dollar cheaper than non-mercury containing shots. Having a brain damaged child I'm not that overjoyed that he was given a neurotoxin when he could have had a jab without a neurotoxin foor a dollar more. Had I know I would have paid the difference.