"Doping Your Children"

[Tigermoth]

My childminder recently mentioned I could buy some phenergen for my toddler, if I was having problems with him on long car journeys, as a very last resort. It helps them sleep. She's very responsible and gave me lots warnings about it. I decided to look up this message thread to see what others think. What a revealation!

Batters, she has tiny sips, so no I'm not worried about the effects on her, if she started to roll her eyes, slur her words etc I would guess she'd had enough! (I jest).

Rachel1969, I think I saw a section from the book you mention 'Fast food Nation', in one of the weekend papers, YUK! From the bit I read I wouldnt eat a McD nugget again.

Re the alcohol thing - naturally, kids are very keen to copy us and also very curious, so if they see us drinking and enjoying it then of course they'll want some too. We have the rule that our two are both allowed one sip each, to satisfy curiosity, and when they're older we'll probably do the wine and water thing. When we have a special family meal (usually Sunday evening, with the table laid properly and candles etc) my son (3.5) really loves having apple juice in a wine glass, so that he is having a 'special' drink too and can join in saying cheers and clinking glasses etc. The ritual of it, and being like the grownups, seems to attract him more than the actual alcohol.

It is apparently illegal in this country to give a child under five any alcohol at all. This came to light when I made a small joke to a friend about letting their child try a sip of a gin and tonic and they reacted with utter horror. So Bells is right to get wrestling! We let our son try milky tea or coffee but like many others here he just wants to be like mummy and soon marches off declaring, "horrble". I think the ideas of giving children special drinks so that they can be grown-up is lovely. Suew, I think it was the Australians who invented the "babyccino"? Steamed warm milk with a bit of chocolate powder, served in a cup? When I first heard about this, I thought, how silly. That was before I had a cup-snatching, nosy toddler of my own.

I remember Christmas times we were allowed to have lemonade with dinner in special glasses that only came out at events like Christmas. I think you're right about the special rituals. I can also remember the thrill of being allowed to drink coke out of the bottle with a straw in the pub garden as a kid! (Is that a bit sad?!) Drinks at home were always squash in sensible plastic beakers!

I believe once children are five they are allowed alcohol in the home and I think its 16 to drink in public as long as the drink accompanies a meal. I'll have to find some where to check that out.

emmam, i THINK it's actually 14 with a meal. (and 15 when they're out with their mates on a friday night!)

Whenever my parents had a bottle of wine when we were children, we were all allowed a little bit, ranging from half a glass to a small drop in a sherry class for the youngest ones. It took the mystique out of drinking. Years later when I worked in the States I was horrified at the American teenager's attitude to alcohol. They are banned from drinking till 21 (Jenna Bush's problem) and they are absolutly hysterical about getting drink. Their attitude to drugs was far healthier, take it or leave it, but drink was the forbidden object of their desires. I'm not advocating giving your children a puff of a splif at an early age, but there is a lot to be said for instilling a matter of fact attitude to stimulants at an early age.

As young teenagers we were offered small glasses of wine or beer at celebrations, special occasions etc. My parents always explained exactly what we were drinking (i.e wine type) in an attempt to educate us. At the time, I thought wine and beer were completely disgusting but I did feel very grown up having my own glass.
I think that this did make me very reluctant to drink cheap cider with my schoolfriends but once I went to university I did get completely bladdered alot in a way that was very bad for my health.
I suppose my conclusion from all of this is that it probably is a good idea to introduce teenagers to alcohol in a family setting but they will do their own experiments with it anyway.

So, we've on to coffee and drinks now. I too give diluted alcohol to oldest son. Toddler has shown little interest, though will take a passing swig at a can of lager if not watched. Not in the same league as Bells' son. Junior cocktail set for next birthday? (joke). I'm in the moderation in all things camp - unless its creme de menthe.

I do, however have another worry about alcohol and children, though: Pub culture.

A few years ago, I was with a group of friends and our assorted children, sitting in a sunny, pretty beer garden, lots of familiar, friendly faces, children running around happily, all of us on first name terms with the bar staff, thinking - as you do - how nice it all was. But then another thought occurred to me. Nearly all our friends went to pubs and or drank alcohol. Lots of our aquaintances we had met through pubs, even if we saw them outside. Even my son's teachers we knew through meeting at one of our locals.

My husband goes to pubs much more than me, but neither of us live our lives in pubs. It's just that we've met lots of our friends there and dip into the the music/festival/party/ social life that spans out from them. The result is that my son knows all these very nice 25 - 5O year olds, all rather relaxed and 'young' in outlook. Put this against the fact that we have no extended family and it is obvious that my son is meeting a really unbalanced cross-section of adults.

I think this is extremely worrying. I don't want him growing up thinking that all adults like pubs and/or like drink. And that's what you do. I want him to meet people who are passionate about unusual hobbies, who do all sorts of other things with their time - local history nuts, obsessive gardeners, trainspotters (!), etc etc. Adults who are growing old gracefully, full-time carers, yoga enthusiasts, people who love evening classes etc. People who never go to a pub from one month to the next. You get the picture.

So I'm making a real effort to get him involved with a wider cross secton of adults: Community things, church ( a bit - told him to have an open mind about God), Beavers, etc. I really want him know teenagers and retired people as well as our friends. I want him to know that not all 20 year olds are into bands and clubs and that over 60's are not in old people's homes.

I think at his impressionable age, 7 years, it's really important for him to see that there are lots of ways of living life, that the way we and our friends spend our time is only one way.

I think the comment about American teens being desperate for a drink is an interesting one. If something's banned, you want it all the more. Our licensing laws are partly responsible for the 'get as many down your neck as you can' attitude which seems to prevail amongst many UK teens. My kids don't seem interested in alcohol at the moment, but I intend to educate them along the French model, ie that alcohol is a great pleasure but that it can be used wisely. Mind you, I suspect that at least one session of getting paralytic and passing out in the gutter (poor Euan Blair) is actually an essential rite of passage!

roglyn - the rite of passage thing is an interesting one. i think it might relate to personality type...my daughter ruined an evening out at a friend's 18th when she was just 15, a year ago, through no fault of her own (really...) except that her glass kept being refilled and she kept emptying it! so when the others left the restaurant to go round town she was completely legless and had to come home to bed and missed all the fun.
as a result she is now quite cautious about wine (and doesn't drink anything else much) so generally survives her evenings out with nothing worse than exhaustion and grumpiness next morning, but some of her friends seem to lose it completely at least once a month. whether this is down to physical differences, or personality types, or nothing in particular, i wouldn't like to say - but from her experience having one really bad blowout early on seems to have been salutary....might be worth bearing in mind.
boys, on the other hand, seem to go out of their way to get as ill as possible!

Poor thing. I think the problem when you're a teen is not knowing what your capacity is. And girls try to keep up with the boys when their capacity is about half what boys can manage, because of body size (I remember reading somewhere...)Coming a cropper early on is probably no bad thing as long as there's no permanent damage. But I do fear for my boys (9,8,6) in the future if they don't learn to manage alcohol properly because boys don't always seem to be that sensible do they? With noteable exceptions I'm sure, but we do suffer from marauding drunken lads where I live...and it is mainly boys. They don't seem to know what to do with themselves,esp after the pubs kick out.

Reading your messages, Roglyn and Janh, has made me even more determined to ensure my sons get to know lots of non-drinking, non-pub going adults, along with the rest of our adult friends.

tigermoth, you are right to be so concerned about our pub culture but it's a tough one to crack, esp when they get to the age when peer pressure matters to most of them so much.
as long as they have a pretty sound background they should be able to resist a bit better, but it depends where you live, what's available, who their friends are...
there are so few reasonable (in both senses) alternatives which are acceptable to them.