"Doping Your Children"

[Tigermoth]

My childminder recently mentioned I could buy some phenergen for my toddler, if I was having problems with him on long car journeys, as a very last resort. It helps them sleep. She's very responsible and gave me lots warnings about it. I decided to look up this message thread to see what others think. What a revealation!

My two-year-old is also pretty adept at getting out of her car seat - I started out screaming at her to put her arms back in (not very PC)which she obviously ignored.
Then spent about a week simply pulling the car over every time she did it - including hard shoulder on m-way - and refusing to move on again until she put her arms back in the straps. I stayed v calm and just said that it was too dangerous to drive while she wasn't safely strapped in. In the end she got bored and put her arms back in.
On the couple of times she managed to get out completely after that I literally drove her straight home and told her she wasn;t alowed in the car until I could trust her not to undo her straps, again reiterating the danger thing(was a nightmare when she did it on the way to nursery and I had to get home to work )
Am pleased to report it worked - we now make a big thing of letting her undo the buckle herself when the car has stopped but always remind her that she mustn't do it until mummy takes the keys out of the ignition. I don't know if your little boy is old enough to understand that yet - but once he is it really does work. Somehow you have to empower them - but then remove that privilige if they betray your trust.
Also, re: doping - I am one of those dreadful journalists that got a knocking earlier in this discussion. I write loads of stuff in the Mail about my kids and the way I bring them up and often you write something controversial to get a reaction, which India certainly did with her article as this discusion has shown.
We are a pretty thick-skinned breed - we have to be because people either agree with what we say or think what we write or are totally opposed to it. That's the point of what we do - it's great to read something that someone's written and think 'yeah - I know exactly where you're coming from'. It's also stimulating to read something that gets your back up and makes you want to react - I love reading articles that p* me off because it reminds me that I have opinions of my own.
If you write an opinionated piece then it has to be just that - there's no point sitting on the fence because no-one would want to read it. When you get a reaction, whatever that reaction is, you feel marvelous because you know that you've gripped the reader long enough to either please or insense them.
I think India's point was a valid one - many well educated, middle class women use over the counter medicines to get a decent night's sleep or a peaceful car/train/plane journey. Whether I agree with them or not I have many friends (who aren't journalists) who I know do this - they then have to live with a hung-over child the next day as a result.
The point she was making was that Ritilin etc seems to her to be taking the whole thing a stage further, which concerns her and me too. I'm currently on a food elimination diet because I had meningitis a year ago and am still plagued by health problems as a result - in desperation I'm cutting out foods I'm intolerant to to see if it helps with my symptoms. One of these is chocolate (ahhhhh) and when I have it now after abstaining for a while I am acutely aware of the affect it has on me (it makes me hyper and then really tired and grumpy afterwards) I'm certain many children with behavioural problems would be helped by a change in their diets.
Anyway, good luck with Houdini
And don't be so hard on us journalists - just doing a job guv! Also - any decent writer never bashes an article out. You take great pride in every word you write and I labour over my articles, whether they're personal or interviews with other people. The majority of the feedback is incredibly positive and I'm proud to say that undercover investigations I worked on before I had my kids have resulted in laws being changed for the benefit of us all.
Yes, we get paid to do it - that's because we do it for a living. It takes years to get to a level where writing what you think for national newspapers helps pay the mortgage - you wouldn't knock a doctor for getting paid to save lives. OK - being a writer isnt as worthy as being a doctor, but it's the job I chose for myself and I think I'm entitled to be proud of what I do.
So there ..... (I'm also incredibly mature!)
Rachel

I don't have a problem at all with opinionated articles or people in general - in fact quite the opposite. What riles me is when articles get the basic facts wrong. This often applies to India Knight. For example on Sunday she wrote about a 12 year old who is pregnant saying how absurd it is that the police said that the father would be likely to be charged with rape as a 12 year old cannot consent to sex. She went on and on about how 12 year olds these days were clearly old enough to be able to consent to sex. Doh! - the age of consent in this country is 16, therefore legally she had no right to give consent and so of course, the police are only following the current law. The girl's maturity or otherwise is utterly irrelevant. Same goes for her pernicious anti-breastfeeding and pro-caesearean articles where her bias and convenient ignorance of the facts are breathtaking.

I also take issue with the opening line of her article on doping which says "we all do it". Sorry, but we don't.

I appreciate you taking the time to set out the journalist's cause Rachel. I wholeheartedly agree that articles should be opinionated and thought provoking but please, get the facts right and don't twist things solely to support your own point of view.

Thanks Croppy - I go to a great deal of trouble to get my facts right and hope I never sink as low as to twist things solely to support my own point of view. Those who do that are crap (which I'm not of course!).
Do you work Croppy?

Rachel1969...what a question to ask!
I too appreciated you stating the journalist's case, but I also get disgusted every time I read articles which get the facts wrong. I hardly ever read the newspapers now because I find the standard of the writing pretty low most of the time (same old prejudices, same old lack of experience of what they are talking about, same old assumptions that everyone who reads a broadsheet earns as much as they do etc etc). So I am happy to hear that some journalists take great pains to research and write to a higher standard!

Marina, I think the Travel Scribbler is ELC ... I will look and let you know. It was a present.

Absolutely Sml, it is indeed great to hear of a journalist who takes great pains to get their facts right. Rachel, I don't read the Daily Mail - sorry my last line wasn't directed at you. I was referring to the many articles I read which do just that. Yes I do work - on a City trading floor. The inaccuracies in financial reporting are astounding!.

Bugsy, it is just my opinion that a parent is not justified in doping except where the benefit to the child is direct, eg sleep off an illness. I am sorry if it comes across as condemning, as I am aware that others ascribe different priorities to the factors involved. But I am puzzled by the language used by you and others - a "desparate" situation? I think it is really sad that people come to feel so desparate about looking after a normal healthy child that they drug him/her to make the job easier. (I am counting diagnosed HA children as ill of course). I think this is a reflection on the state of our society - loss of the extended family and other traditional support and criticism, inexperienced first time parents, financial pressures on both parents to work full time and organise child care out of the home, etc etc. Please don't anyone come back and tell me that I haven't experienced such dreadful problems as they have, as I am really not keen to post more details about my life and how much sleep I got last night! It's reasonable to suppose that most mothers of several children will have gone through most of the small child problems at one time or another, so we all know what sort of 3 am, xth night in a row, sleep-deprived situation we are talking about!

I don't read the Daily Mail either I'm afraid Rachel, but it is always good to hear a robust defence of the second oldest profession! You'll have to post your TSS article here for us if it gets taken up.

Made my list: Travel Scribbler,cheese strings,sweets,sausages,sheepskin rug and toddler tray. Thank you all!!

Rachael 1969, thanks for your advice. I've used the stopping-the-car-tactic to good effect with my oldest son. It's a winner, isn't it? As soon as my toddler knows his way round some words, I'll be trying this with him, too.

And, glad you have professional pride and passion in your work. I know it's a cheeky question, but do you know India Knight personally?? Are the views she writes really her own or is there another agenda to entertain or provoke. I wonder.

RE Journalism in general. Isn't it so tempting for journalists to write what their target audience wants to read (or be provoked by) and make broad assumptions about their views? I find it harder and harder to read womens magazines the older I get because each is so obviously targeted at a particular age group and life stage - or the women who aspire to it. I'm sure I'd be far more entertained and informed if a womans magazine existed that mixed the views and writing exhibited in say 'Festival Eye'/ 'Vogue'/ The People's Friend' all together.

Can I point out that Phenergen is not only used for "doping" children. We used it once when the eldest had Tonsillitis and had a dreadful Urticarea rash all over her body. We were given this bottle by our GP and he stated very clearly that it would her very sleepy, as in she slept for 18 hours out of 24 and that was only with one 2.5ml of it, she didn't get it againwe used Clarytin the next time, which worked as well and she remained awake! I also know of some mums who have given Phenergen to get a nights sleep, after they have spent over a fortnight of having only 2-3 hours sleep, and in their cases it was only given for 4 nights max to help the child and them, some it worked for others it didn't. I've never been in the position of having a child like that or one that won't stay in their car seat, so I cannot really pass comment, of course we had the incidents of the straps being undone but never out of the seat.
Britax do trays that clip onto some of their seats, you can also get a child steering wheel and dashboard like a Formula One Racing Car, that clips onto the car seat as well, think you can get them from ELC or Great Little Trading Co.

Sorry the start of my last message, seems a bit "in your face", I do apologise.

Croppy, it wasn't really this board I was referring to about "condemning" or "telling off". I have always found the mumsnet boards to be pretty fair and respectful of the way people bring up their children, even in areas of disagreement but this is not always the case away from these boards. Sorry, I should have made that clearer in my post.

Don't worry Bugsy, I am just in a bad mood today. Been moved to sit next to the stinky Ukrainian who hates women (and no, I'm not racially sterotyping, he just happens to be all three of those things). Am simply going to have to leave a jumbo deodorant on his desk before I pass out....

Croppy, why were you moved? Been talking in class??
Sorry, couldn't resist..................

Sigh, too much communal "Hello" reading with the bunch of girls prevously behind me I suspect...

Croppy, I'm sorry to hear about your stinky office companion. That's the problem the moment the weather warms up, all these closet pongers re-emerge. The tube is fetid already. Maybe tomorrow you should go in and pop a can of Right Guard on his desk.

Croppy, why don't you try the direct approach as in "you smell very badly mate!". I cannot stand it, there is nothing worse than being sat next to the original perfume wagon, it gets on my nerves than some people can actually go about smelling like that. Think that a bar of soap might be suitable as well.

A pot of Neutradol gel (spelling?) eliminates air-borne odours really well. I've tried it. The only problem is, do you put it on your desk or on the Ukranian's?

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I can assure you Robinw that I felt utterly utterly desperate many times when my son was a baby. I won't go into his sleep problems (concurrent with my 12 hour days at the office) as like Sml, I think it is pointless to try and score points on extremes of tiredness and desperation. Having said that, I never contemplated "doping" him. I have no family and basically no support network. Having said that, I'm not condemning mothers who have gone down that route, just expressing the view that I would never do it.

As for comparing sweets to phenergen - sorry but I just don't accept that at all. There is nothing wrong with sweets as part of a balanced diet and I think most of us here are highly conscious of the need for a very good dental regime from very early on. Again, as for choking I think most people are aware of the types of food that are prone to lead to choking and clearly these wouldn't be suitable for a car journey.

I don't think Tigermoth would have posted her question in the first place unless she wanted to get a variety of views. In any case, there is no "condeming" message on this board. If you are happy with your decisions as regards the care of your child, then presumably you shouln't particularly mind what other people's views are regarding the way they care for their own.

Robinw, I just think you need to accept that people have different views on this subject. I don't really think you can make the assumption that sml has clearly never felt desperate or otherwise she would support the administering of drugs to quieten children. Some parents for example, would never contemplate smacking their child even in the face of the most vile, appalling and uncontrollable behaviour. This doesn't necessarily reflect their level of desperation, rather their approach to parenting in general.

In any case, with 3 small children, a full time job, childcare provided outside the home, no cleaner (I think) and probably no family nearby, it seems to me that sml does well to stay sane at the best of times!.

Anyway, back to my neighbour's personal hygiene problem, I decided to take the direct approach and leave a large extra strong deodorant on his desk. He asked me if I knew what it was about and I just had to be fairly blunt about it..... Now I just have to sort out his "whistling" nose - driving me mad!!.

Croppy, how about leaving a Nasal Clipper lying about ............., oh I was helpless reading about his whistling nose. Totally agree about sweets, as long as they are given in moderation and a good teeth cleaning given twice a day then whats the problem?. My eldest who is in Primary 1 cleans her teeth after her lunch at school, and I think that they do up to Primary5, different Education system in Scotland though, or do they do this down south as well?.

Tigger,Gracie,Croppy,Sml,robinW etc etc. Just to say that when I asked the question, 'what do you think about doping my son, as a last resort, for his safety, to stop him wriggling out of his seat on long car journeys?' I did expect a variety of replies - I'd just read the previous messages RE India Knight on this board. It would have been extremely disconcerting if everyone had replied 'yes, dope him to the eye balls'. Rather 'Stepford Wives'. I don't feel at all condemned or told off by those who would never consider doping. Unless anyone here is a memeber of the thought police, what's wrong with considering all options, asking round for opinions? You don't have to follow through with action. I think I owe it to my son to find out how I can keep him safe in the car.

So I will be contacting car seat manufacturers, especially to find out if children really are safe if secured only by the waist and not the shoulder straps. Keep you posted on this.

Had I heard lots of good reports about phenergen (makes them sleep easily, wake happily after a few hours, no side effects) I may well have tried it. As it is, I havn't, so I won't.

As for sweets, we all know they can cause tooth decay. Hopefully regular brushing will prevent that, but I'd imagine that you are increasing the risk. Also what about all that sugar whizzing around my son's bloodstream?. Excuse me if I'm wrong, but doesn't sugar cause many children to be temporarily hyper? And if my son gets hyper, he's more likely to want to wriggle out his seat. In his short life, he hasn't yet had enough sweets for me to know if he is affected this way, but I'll have to keep an eye on this, and up the cheese/fruit quota, along with all the other good suggestins kindly offered by Sml and others.

I suppose what I'm saying is that doping, smacking etc fall into a grey area for me. At times, they may be an appropriate course of action : ie if my son wandered dangerously near a bonfire and couldn't or wouldn't hear my warnings,I might slap or push him away from
the flames.

Fine by me if you never consider these options, but I just don't see things in black and white. Thank you for all your comments.

Have only just seen messages re: second oldest profession (!)
Tigermoth - no, I don't know her personally, although, dare I admit it, I like her work - if only for the reason that she's so un-PC and doesn;t make me feel like a complete inadequate by preaching to me about what a fantastic mother she is. Her book, My Life on a Plate, is hilarious.
As for journalists writing for target audiences - maybe we're actually members of the oldest profession after all. You always write to your target audience, but gradually you become established enough to be able to get your own personality across. I write for a very middle-class, right of centre newspaper which is not me at all - I just avoid subjects that are political and never take on a piece that would mean me compromising what I believe. It's taken the last decade for me to get to that stage.
I simply can't afford to write for the broadsheets because they pay peanuts - tabloids pay enough for me to be able to only work school hours.
I know what you mean about not being able to relate to the women's mags etc - Up until a couple of years ago I wrote for Cosmo which was a nightmare. The target audience is very young women with careers and no kids whose biggest worries are what to wear on a Saturday night - I'm sure they'd have been mortified if they'd realised that they were reading something written by a mum of two who wears her PJs under her clothes to do the school run and who's sleep debt is due to said kids rather than fantastic sex life!

Croppy - is the City as cut-throat as the stories suggest (though you sound like you can handle yourself v nicely) how the hell do you manage it with family life too.

And Sml - what question do you mean? Was it the fact I asked Croppy if she works???

Finally - you all seem very careful not to upset each other and appear horrified if anyone has a go. I reckon I'm going to last about five minutes here before I get booted out! Surely it's OK to disagree with one another - at the end of the day if you put your foot in it big time you just retire gracefully and return with a new nickname!

Hear hear Rachel1969 on the sensitivity issue!. If disagreeing with somebody is frowned upon, then clearly there is no point to Mumsnet. As far as the City is concerned, it is indeed a strange environment but I love it. The money is obviously fantastic and it is one of the few careers where the way you do your job is entirely up to you (although obviously you run a very good risk of being booted out if you stuff up). The press is always full of cliched articles about the sexism and so on which is true but it needs to be seen in context. I sit on a trading floor with around 750 people, we sit 10 inches apart from each other and by the nature of the job, tend to be all opinionated, assertive people. In this environment, the insults and teasing are constant but it's not just women who bear the brunt of it, it's fat people, bald people, spotty people etc etc. I have a reputation for being very fierce and not putting up with any rubbish (my husband thinks this is hilarious!) and as a result, most of my colleagues are no doubt, scared or at least wary, of me. I am not proud of this but I decided early on that it was preferable to the alternative which is being subjected to questions such as "did you get it last night" etc etc first thing on a Monday morning....

On the journalist subject, I am an avid reader of newspapers and wanted to make it clear that overall, I think the standard and quality of writing in Britain is fantastically high. Funnily enough, it is usually articles on careers, women and families that rile me. They always seem to keen to reinforce stereotypes, generalise massively and as an added bonus, inspire guilt. I agree on India Knight being very amusing and I like the non PC aspect of her columns. Her stance on breastfeeding though seriously annoyed me!!.