does 'the menopause' make you feel grotty?

[fishfacedcow]

i have decided to stop the HRT and just embrace the menopause. But since i stopped taking it i feel a low level grottiness.... you know like when you arent 100% and are coming down with something.

I just ache all over...sleeping at funny times...headachey.....get hot at bedtime but not sexy hot! pain like period pain/cramps

AlcoChocs thanks. I am glad you think that makes a difference too

I almost never have alcohol either, (but had become pretty intolerant even before after being pregnant so not had much anyway, so cannot comment)

I eat throughout day and am not hungry or putting on weight - not because of my own particular metabolism but because of what the food is - just incase anyone wonders if they have to put on weight with the menopause.

Gobbin I think you've lost your way and ended up here instead of the AIBU forum.
What is making me laugh if the fact that all you can do is insult me, instead of actually engaging in a proper debate about menopause and HRT. Rather than say okay, fine, guess I was mistaken about certain things, you continue to come back and try to provoke. Maybe you need HRT after all to calm down!
As for asking someone a bit more about why they have been advised to stop HRT, I don't quite see what your issue is. The point I made was that not all HRT goes through the liver- this was in response to the OP saying she had to stop as 'it went through her liver'.

Gobbin I have found it very difficult on here to have a discussion about menopause, those who are skeptical of the mainstream line on hrt tend to be shouted down by those who regard it as a panacea.

Perhaps a thread in the menopause section which is specifically aimed at discussion for those who want to avoid hrt would be the answer?

As it is I wonder if the existing menopause section should be renamed the HRT board!

The OP is looking for support in how to feel better after stopping HRT. Lots of women go through the menopause without being medicated and find lifestyle and dietary changes that help them.
OP has already decided to stop HRT so I don't understand why PollyPerky is trying to persuade her to carry on taking it.

Alco Not sure why you are misquoting me? I'm not trying to persuade anyone to do anything, believe it or not!
Talk about putting words into people's mouths!
I asked the OP if she had considered - or her drs had offered- her the option of transdermal HRT because it does not pass directly through the liver. That is a perfectly reasonable question given that she is not feeling great after stopping HRT. Liver specialists don't always know everything about HRT just like gynaes don't always know everything about livers!

It's very sad that on a thread about HRT women gang up on one person who has some knowledge of it and start name-calling and acting like kids in the playground, just because they don't 'believe' in HRT or managed fine without it.

Polly you are the poster who is most adversarial in these threads!

you've accused other posters of acting like kids, being ignorant and arrogant, told other posters off for posting in a manner which you believe belongs in aibu, and suggested that someone must be hormonal because they challenge your viewpoint!

I dont see how your finger wagging and belittling approach is consistent with your claim that ' All I want is for women to know the latest research and they can make an informed choice'

I consider HRT has saved my sanity, and saved my relationships with my loved ones. I feel fantastic.

I'm forever grateful my GP is a scientist who isn't going to stand on a position, but rather one who looked at the evidence from more recent research, informed herself and changed her mind about HRT. She says I do t have to come off it u till im 70 and then we'll see. She intends to take it for as long as she can too. The HRT she takes is a very low dose, as is mine.

Dorje,
you are so lucky to have a GP who takes the time to keep up with current guidelines.
My GP is quite good and is happy to keep prescribing as long as my blood pressure and general health is within good ranges.
But I live in fear that she may leave and I will end up with some pompous ''HRT is evil and dangerous - here have some anti-depressants instead'' doctor.
It happens.
My friend's doctor is like this. Every time she goes for her repeat prescription, she has to jump through all sorts of hoops, before he begrudgingly says yes.

I wish they would all keep up with things.
The risks with HRT are relatively low compared to the risks with most other medications.

Hi Kinddogstail.
My GP wasn't really aware of the HRT I wanted, but, she listens, looked it up and was able to prescribe it.

My chemist hadn't ever had it in before and I had to show that it had been liscenced for use, (I printed off the medical council licence for them) so they could dispense it.

It was a bit of a palaver, but being on the menopause forum here and getting some really great advice from Polly amongst others actually I kept at it and got what I wanted. I'm delighted as its bio identical, and is exactly what my body would be making if I hadn't had my menopause early.

I'm using oestrogel, a bio identical oestrogen trans dermal gel that comes in a pump container, and utrogenesan, a natural progesterone made from yams I think, that is in a little oil based capsule. I rub two pumps of the oestrogel a day into my upper arms and I take one capsule of utrogenesan for 14/28 days, to mimic a menstrual cycle, but at a lower dose than I had when fertile. HTH.

I am surprised at how polarised the debate is because new evidence shows that over all, HRT is of benefit and can save women's bones, hearts, and relationships.
I guess we have anti vaccine loons on MN who shout from their soap boxes too. Maybe I should just accecpt there are some people who have plenty of opinions and like to give them an airing, ignoring the facts and evidence.

I'm not engaging with the debate, just in case anyone feels like having a go, and cutting and pasting my posts with bold highlights.
I'm just giving my experience to those who it might help.

It took me a while to find my path I want through the menopause, and I'm very happy with my decision to go on bio identical HRT, based on research and evidence, and supported by my GP who I respect as a fellow scientist and a person of professional integrity.
Maybe posting about my path will help someone to navigate their own menopause without the crippling tiredness, forgetfulness, night sweating, hot flashes, insomnia and bone aches I had. Oh, and grumpiness, let's not forget that

Peace and love!

crippling tiredness, forgetfulness, night sweating, hot flashes, insomnia and bone aches
that sounds terrible:(
I agree that if you have those symptoms you definitely need some medical intervention!
I guess I was just really lucky, had a few bouts of insomnia and some hot flushes, it's great not to have periods.
If I'd had the horrible problems that some people have I would have gone for hrt aswell, however I'm hugely relieved that I don't have to run the increased cancer risk that comes with hrt.

I'm not a 'loon'

Thanks very much for the information Dorje

You have been lucky to get the right kind. It will help others to stick out for it if they want it too.

Your GP sounds super Dorje I was lucky enough to be able to see GPs that were positive about HRT but they were not so up to date with prescribing. Fortunately I am on a reasonable tablet form, but I would have loved to try transdermal as it is supposed to be less risk overall.

Unfortunately, my current surgery only has one part-time female doctor who deals with women's health and I have to see the practice prescribing nurse for routine stuff. I have managed to get out of her that it is possible to continue past 5 years for uro-genital problems (which don't stop)

Sadly, my 'periods' had not stopped before I started with all that, so no joy there either

Dorje
Your GP seems unusual in that she was willing to listen to you about something she did not know herself. You mentioned, I think, you are a scientist. Do you think that is why?

Then the fact that you knew how to show the chemist the licence is interesting too. It shows what people can be up against when trying to get the treatment they want, I think.
A GP a spoke to a few years ago, to whom I even even gave names the names of the hormone prescriptions, just looked blank. And that was the end of it.

Re: Uro genital problems,

1. I found I needed to watch out for any infections - I had gum disease and when I got very good treatment for that, I stopped getting a cystitus feeling.

1. I find that Vitamin C tablets brings it on for days afterwards. Now I do not dare have that, but am OK with some citrus fruit.

I was given vagifem by the gynae for urogenital - pretty sure gp can't take that away - it is such a low dose, that it is pissing in the wind. So to speak. Makes a difference though.

Just caught up, Thank you kind dogs I don't think my mother has changed much actually. She could do more. Before the menopause she was just naturally blessed with a great metabolism, never put on weight no matter what she ate, stomach flatter than mine ever was even before I had DCs! To be honest I think she became a bit depressed once the MP started and doesn't see the point in trying to look good or do anything else much, although she is an active walker. She went to our doctor who more or less reiterated it was natural and is reluctant to prescribe HRT, and doesn't have much of a clue about alternatives other than Menopace tablets. But she still has hot flushes down to this day. So I plan to try the bio-identicals or HRT if necessary when it's my turn!

Glass I'm not going to continue this 'spat' with you or anyone, except to say that if you read the thread, you will see that it was another poster way back who accused me of talking 'bollocks'. I'm not accepting that when the information I posted was factual, so excuse me if I defended myself .

You have been very provocative, by calling me a self appointed tzar, by suggesting I may report your posts and even PM you! You seem intent on goading me, whereas my posts have focused on guidelines and correcting misinformation. Maybe look at your own style of posting and what your intentions were here?

Thank you.

Have just read this thread - well!!

There were just a few points along the way I want to comment on somehow!

Post menopuase (imo) is a phase of life when estrogen levels are lower than during the fertile years, our bodies are programmed to function best with reduced estrogen levels during this phase Glass garden

I'm not sure what you mean by this in genetic/evolutionary terms? If we are programmed then the process is governed by our genes - but menopause happens post-reproduction so natural selection cannot operate in the same way. The evolution of menopause is a whole different - but fascinating topic.

Coming off HRT means going through the menopause symptoms. Gobbin

I don't think I'm repeating anyone else by challenging this? The main point is that if you start HRT during peri-menopause - your hormones are still fluctuating - as your ovaries begin to pack up. The surges up and down that are occurring (and cause the first symptoms) are due to the fluctuations in oestrogen and progesterone as well as the overall decrease in oestrogen. If you start HRT during this phase then you will ride out these fluctuations, so that if 5-10 years down the line you are forced to decide to stop, then these fluctuations will not happen because your ovaries will have packed up. Some women as I think was mentioned, may still experience a period of time on hot flushes/sweats as oestrogen levels decrease (or they may not) but they will not have to go through the menopause as such - that will have been and gone. If you are one of the proportion of women who suffer symptoms during the menopausal period but which will then cease - then it's a win-win situation!! You may get a few flushes when/if you do come off but will feel OK eventually.

That you might experience flushes and sweats if/when you eventually come off HRT, is not a valid reason not to take it in the first place! Say you start to experience symptoms in your mid 40's and go on HRT for 10 years (symptoms cease) and then come off in your 50's - and symptoms resume for a while. Well you've had 10 years of better quality of life (and eg better bone protection - not a matter of opinion) than if you hadn't. I have been on HRT for nearly 10 years and now in my 60's - but even if I do suffer symptoms if/when I stop HRT - then I've had 10 years of better quality of life and health than otherwise!

^agree that if you have those symptoms you definitely need some medical intervention!
I guess I was just really lucky, had a few bouts of insomnia and some hot flushes, it's great not to have periods.Glass garden^

I'm actually glad I suffered symptoms during late peri-menopause which made me decide to try HRT - because I am also experiencing the overall health benefits (bones and heart etc) which I wouldn't have done had I "sailed through". You don't know whether you are lucky or not Glass garden - until you reach an older age - to see if lack of oestrogen has any serious adverse effects on your overall health.

Abraid 2 – you quoted some info on bio-identicals. It is really important not to confuse "bio-identical hormone replacement therapy" with what Dorje is talking about ie bio-identical hormones with the same molecular structure as the hormones we produce in our bodies. BHRT is rife in America but not so much here because we can get the said hormones on NHS as the link showed.

Someone mentioned being a scientist and showing the license for a product. This is not necessary. All the information about current licesned products is on the Menopause Matters website under HRT preparations. If you google any product (eg Femoston) and "SPC" you will come up with detailed info and prescribing information - under the "Summary of Product Characteristics" - or google "PIL" and the product name - for the patient information leaflet.

That was the point I was straining towards, Bella. It can be confusing reading some of the US forums and articles written by Americans.

Yes I didn't mean you Abraid but anyone who might read the thread and infer incorrectly from what you said that they were intrinsically a bad thing!

Yes I didn't mean you Abraid but anyone who might read the thread and infer incorrectly from what you said that they were intrinsically a bad thing

I don't think anyone on this thread has openly suggested that HRT is a bad thing per se.

What a few of us are questioning is the lack of support for women who want to be HRT-free (for whatever reason), the inference that HRT is the only sensible option for the peri-menopausal woman, the shouting down of other points of view and the suggestion that one can only have a good quality of life when on HRT, rather than managing menopause in other ways.

There are other ways women can improve their quality of life without HRT. Your average GP is not going to offer much in the way of that because most people's experience shows they aren't that clued up on the menopause anyway.

My consultant is very interested in complementary ways of helping women and indeed suggests - and has written about- lots of things that can help. That information is out there if women want to find it.

The facts though- as shown by research trials- is that nothing works as well as HRT. I've linked on the Menopause forum to information by the RCOG which looks at the evidence around complementary products - herbs, medications, lifestyle- so again, that information is out there- just google.

The point made by BellaC is that the menopause has several stages. The short term (for some) symptoms are the tip of the iceberg and some women don't suffer too badly. The the medium and longer term symptoms can affect women decades later. These include heart disease and low bone density, as well as bladder and prolapse issues.
Women's risk of heart disease rises to the same as men's, post menopause, and that is due to loss of oestrogen, which would keep the arteries more supple and less furred up.

The new thinking behind HRT (if you read NICE and the IMS/BMS statements) is that HRT should be individualised. This means women can pick and choose (with their drs) from a wide range of HRT (not just a packet of pills) , the dose ( latest research by Panay has focused on ultra-low oestrogen to help bones) and a woman's personal risk factors.

Armed with this info, I've decided for the moment to use HRT to give me quality of life so I can carry on working, drive 5 hrs to visit sick and elderly parents without being knackered through lack of sleep, and also protect my bones (I am at risk for osteo) and heart (heart disease/stroke on the maternal side).

Other women won't have these concerns so what they choose is up to them. What's important though is to let women know the latest medical opinions on HRT instead of still believing in outdated research and opinions. There is a huge issue with osteoporosis and many consultants blame this on women being denied HRT for 10 years (since the WHI report).

I can see that I'm very lucky, ive been able to organise my life so that I have very little stress and my time is mostly my own.

Seems to me that much of the problem lies with the intolerable burden which many women find themselves under at midlife, stressfull job, teenage children and elderly parents to care for.
No wonder their health breaks down with the added stress of the physiological adjustment to changes in hormone levels.

I should probably get my bone density checked at some point just to be on the safe side but I think my risk for cardiovascular disease is very low given my uber heathy lifestyle, I've always had very low blood pressure and resting pulse and AFAIK that is pretty strongly correlated with cardiovascular health.

I don't think anyone on this thread has openly suggested that HRT is a bad thing per se Gobbin - you missed my point there - it was specifically about Abraid's quote about a specific type of HRT - bio-identical hormones and the possible confusion with BHRT - not about the subject and discussions of the thread in general. The "bad thing" referred to was the use of bio-identicals and I thought that was obvious from my post and the comments directed to Abraid - who has clarified what she meant too!!!

glassgarden - great that your lifestyle is healthy - you are doing the best you possibly can for your future health. If you are fortunate enough to be able to have little stress in your life due to circumstances and/or financial good fortune and so are also able to monitor your bones etc privately then that's fine. Many women need to weigh up the risks (of not taking HRT vs taking it) and then decide. The other point is that if you are very healthy in other areas of your life then the risks of HRT (such that they are) become so much smaller. I am like you - very healthy lifestyle, diet, exercise, weight - and so genetic and other environmental considerations aside - my cancer risk from these factors is so much reduced and therefore happily take HRT. After all the overall, absolute risk - such that it might be - is very low.

As you say - our current lifestyles and responsibilities play a huge part - very few women have the luxury to lie about on sofas mopping their brows until it all passes! Even if they did though the issue about what happens to the body 40 years post-menopause without oestrogen - is still there and no amount of stress reduction etc can change these physiological effects. So - you were referring to the symptoms of the menopausal transition - again - as Pollyperky says - a different stage of menopause.

Im pretty confident that advances in medical science will allow me to monitor my health in the post menopause years and address issues as they arise

I'm not really on board with this line that women's bodies inevitability wither without hrt, however I agree its important to stay well informed and ultra low dose, individualised and topical hormone therapy sounds promising.

All this typing has exhausted me!
I'm off to the sofa, gotta lie down and mop my brow...

I'm not sure what medical advances will allow us to monitor our health in the future other than what is out there already. Bone density falls off a cliff post meno (up to 5% a year for a few years) and getting that back is very hard work and involves using drugs that have much more serious and unpleasant side effects than HRT. Women who have no risk factors except being under 9st in weight are as much at risk as other women who smoke, take no exercise etc.

I have 'monitoring' of my bones, cholesterol, BP, uterus, ovaries and breasts. I regard this as preventative medicine rather than shutting the door after the horse has bolted. On the basis of all of this, the consensus is I'm better off using HRT than not.

I have an 'uber' healthy lifestyle but it wasn't touching the flushes and insomnia - and considering my mum, who is almost 90, amazing for her age, also has an uber healthy lifestyle, still had flushes in her 80s, it may be genetic.

The International Menopause Society produced a very interesting document on health of women in midlife. This
It's worth reading through all of it - see pages 28-29 for info on alternative treatments if that's what might float your boat.

You will also find a lot of evidence on what HRT helps with other than 'just' hot flushes. In a nutshell, it helps with bones, hearts, bladder, brains (possible staving off dementia), joint problems due to loss of collagen and cartilage deterioration, bowel cancer, ..I could go on but as I'm accused of doing this anyway (!) here by some, best read it yourself.

The IMS report doesn't go as far as saying that all women (risks taken into account) should use HRT (yet) as a prophylactic, but it doesn't stop far short of that - their report focuses on long-term oestrogen-depletion of deficiency.

Yes, lifestyle and stress are important but many women will work till they are mid-late 60s- out of choice sometimes and also necessity.