does 'the menopause' make you feel grotty?

[fishfacedcow]

i have decided to stop the HRT and just embrace the menopause. But since i stopped taking it i feel a low level grottiness.... you know like when you arent 100% and are coming down with something.

I just ache all over...sleeping at funny times...headachey.....get hot at bedtime but not sexy hot! pain like period pain/cramps

'BIO-IDENTICALS Bio-identical hormones are marketed as being naturally produced hormones which aim to resemble our own hormones and which replace the hormones according to individual requirements. They are in fact very similar to the hormones used in Hormone Replacement Therapy, which are also produced from natural sources, but, unlike HRT hormones, are given in uncontrolled, unregulated amounts, with little evidence available on effect and safety. Measurment of salivary hormone levels is often used to determine the amounts of bio-identicals which are prescribed, but salivary hormone levels bear no correlation with hormone levels which are required to treat menopausal symptoms, or to provide beneficial effects on bone or the cardiovascular system. For more information, see this article on bio-identicals from our magazine. (PDF 1Mb)'

From the menopause matters website. www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=31923.0

Gobbin why not- instead of saying things I post are 'bollocks'- read the NICE guidelines? Your arrogance and lack of knowledge is astounding, to be frank, if we're into trading personal insults.

I know nothing about your mum and why she was taken off HRT. I am a bit younger but still in my 60s. I was told by my consultant (Harley St, one of the top gynaes in UK) that unless any new research proved otherwise, I could stay on it forever.

This, byt the way, is in the consensus statements from the BMS, IMS and NICE.

You are right, menopause is not a disease. But the loss of oestrogen causes disease. This is why 1:2 or 1:3 women over 50 has osteoporosis. More women die from the complications of osteo than breast cancer. My consultant is on record as saying (in a video from the top London hospital where he also practises) 'The menopause causes osteoporosis and osteoporosis is a killer'.

I think you are very very mistaken about women asking for HRT at the first hint of a hot flush. (And if they were why is it any of your business or concern?)

I, for example, got to 53 without a single peri symptom attributed my dr said, to doing 'all the right things'. (diet, exercise, work-life balance...) I was one of those women who thought I'd never need, or want, to use HRT.

Maybe you will be in a better position to tell people how to cope with the menopause when a) you reach that time yourself and b) you educate yourself on the latest guidelines of treatment.

I started perimenopause at 41 and went through the menopause at 46 so I can talk first hand about symptoms, and how it feels to be naturally symptom-free, thank you Polly. Whereas you will still go through it when you eventually get taken off it.

I also have Crohns and have regular DEXA scans and...guess what? I have mild osteopenia from steroid use and malabsorption as expected, but osteoporosis? No.

And it is quite clear from guidelines that ideal HRT use is meant to be short term (around 5 years). The guidelines also state that other non-HRT preparations may be useful. My personal viewpoint is that HRT is being pushed as hard as statins are in GP surgeries all over the UK and I genuinely wonder which of our esteemed politicians, medics, financiers have their fingers in which big-pharma pies.

I don't know what your connection to Nick Panay and the menopausematters website is, Polly, but I'd be wary of taking menopause advice from someone who has a vested interest in at least one giant pharmaceutical company making HRT.

But, the report says, it emerged half of the 18 NICE panel members who drew up the guidance have financial ties to drugs firms behind HRT. They include a top gynaecologist, Nick Panay, who has been paid to offer advice and give lectures by Pfizer and the Japanese pharma giant Shionogi. Another gynaecologist Tony Parsons received cash from Danish company Novo Nordisk to attend an “advisory board meeting” and was also paid to travel to an overseas conference

Gobbin
It's a shame that you are so resistant to learning about HRT and menopause.

Taking your comments in order
I've said a couple of times on this thread that women can stay on HRT indefinitely, as long as there are no medical reasons to stop.
Please read the BMS consensus on HRT

The 3rd point on the list refers to duration.

My own consultant says I can stay on HRT indefinitely as long as I have no medical reason to stop, or there is new research which may change this advice. I'm not sure why you are continuing to argue this point..? I may in time decide to stop, but again, if you read the BMS statement, you will see that the decision about HRT should be taken by the woman, knowing all the facts.

The decision whether to use HRT should be made by each woman having been given sufficient information by her health professional to make a fully informed choice (This applies to duration as well)

I'm not sure which NICE guidelines you are reading - the latest ones were published in Nov 2015. There is no mention of 5 years. This is also confirmed by the BMS statement.

Arbitrary limits should not be placed on the duration of usage of HRT; if symptoms persist, the benefits of hormone therapy usually outweigh the risks.

I am sure you understand that 'arbitrary limits' means timescales such as 2 or 5 years , which used to be the advice.

Even if women choose to stop, they may not have symptoms any more. I think the stats are 50-50. Women who do have symptoms may find they are short term, or not so severe, and if they are, then they can use HRT again. I know of someone in their mid 70s who has gone back to it.

I 've come across those comments about the consultants being 'paid' by pharma companies. It's sheer nonsense to suggest that top consultants in the UK are in the hands of drug companies. It would be interesting to see the actual payments made because I think you'd find they amount to a few pounds for travel expenses or similar. Companies who produce 'alternative' remedies are there to make a profit and nothing else.

As for GPs dishing out HRT - well, take some time to read the forum on Menopause Matters and you will find that most women are having to beg to get HRT from their GPs who are still 'afraid' of it on the whole.

I'm sorry you have osteopenia but you will know that unless you take steps to improve your bone density, it may deteriorate. Thankfully for you, your Crohns means you are having scans and can stop the rot early but not all women are able to access scans and only find out too late.

I don't have any connection with Menopause Matters or Panay, just for the record.

I 've come across those comments about the consultants being 'paid' by pharma companies. It's sheer nonsense to suggest that top consultants in the UK are in the hands of drug companies

I do not think they are necessarily paid by them. But I do think doctors stick to prescribing drugs tested by the pharmaceutical companies and that they are often effectively in their hands.

In the US it is even more so (imo). On the television there are advertisements for prescription only pharmaceuticals during every break - these suggest to the viewer that they ask their doctor for them. So in that case they are controlling the doctor through their high paying patients.

Some good more natural alternatives don't need patents, they are not likely to have been through pharmaceutical trials. So doctors don't prescribe them.

Anti-depressants are a case in point. They are way over-prescribed when alternatives would be better.

The suggestion that consultants in any area of medicine are handing out drugs to line their own pockets is unfair. A consultant will make a clinical judgment for each patient. Their research is funded by many different routes and it's all peer reviewed, nationally and internationally. Don't you think it would be err. ..obvious if they were promoting certain drugs ?

I'm not here to defend Panay or any other dr, but the whole ethos of the NICE report is that women must be treated as individuals. If you talk to drs, or women who are going through menopause, you'll see that they are using all kinds of therapies to try to alleviate symptoms. The NICE report suggests lifestyle measures as well as drugs. My own consultant is very keen on lifestyle measures as a first step. The RCOG (Royal College of Gynaes) has produced a patient leaflet on which alternatives might help- all researched through proper trials.

The idea that women can't do their own research and make a choice, and that they are somehow being pushed into using HRT by consultants who are lining their own wallets by doing so, is patronising- as is the suggestion that the NICE report is somehow 'fixed' to favour HRT. FFS!

Their research is funded by many different routes and it's all peer reviewed, nationally and internationally. Don't you think it would be err. ..obvious if they were promoting certain drugs ?

I do not think doctors are dishonest or getting money from drug companies Polly, but, yes, I do think its obvious certain drugs are being promoted for various reasons.

Another NHS reason can be that they are the cheapest (for example the mostly like birth control pill prescribed.)

Polly I was not necessarily meaning HRT.
I am very suspect of a lot of prescribed drugs however with hormones being high on my suspicion list after experiencing the horrors of the pill once; and also once fake progesterone (called progestone)

I was interesting though earlier in this thread that you got a good version of HRT, and were able to discuss your options, including natural ones with your doctor, because a few years ago I knew what I wanted after research but it was not possible to get it from my GP, even though the pharmacist went through the NICE list and said I should be able to. Various forums showed others unable to get it either.

At one point I was prescribed something made from mare's urine I certainly didn't want having read how it is obtained so then did without and was Ok fairly quickly.

I was also interested in your post that you could have HRT all your life because friends who did go on HRT a few years ago were both told they could only have it for a few years. Then when they did stop they still had to go through the symptoms so those had just been delayed.

Anyway, it is good it worked out well for you.

It's a shame that you are so resistant to learning about HRT and menopause

Not at all. You are an HRT evangelist and I am not, that is all.
I have my mum's 30 year experience of HRT as my reference point. All the way from horse hormones to the present day via double blind drug-in-association-with-HRT trial. It was her choice, and based on her experiences, it wasn't mine.

During my own peri-menopause I read loads of info on many different menopause boards (including menopause matters). Guess what, I still didn't choose HRT.

AntiqueSinger Mon 30-May-16 10:21:07
I was sorry to hear about your mother. I had no HRT and far less bread, little refined sugar etc (by chance for other reasons) and have stayed OK so I wondered of she had tried that?

I'm sorry you have osteopenia but you will know that unless you take steps to improve your bone density, it may deteriorate

I do know, thanks. That's why I've been prescribed Accrete D3 for years. And do weight-bearing exercise. And eat my greens.

Antique
Your link to:
www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3251354/Could-natural-HRT-transform-life-No-woman-facing-menopause-miss-natural-way-end-hot-flushes.html
This was what I wanted but could not get several years ago
I hope you can now.
I had no HRT rather than what was on offer (& and am OK now)

You know years ago, my mum had a hysterectomy when she was mid 40s, and she wouldn't go on any hormones at all as she wanted to do it all "naturally". Well she did it naturally alright, turned into a screaming banshee overnight and none of us wanted to do anything with her. We all left home the shrieking shack as soon as we could.
My mum is an old lady now and has a curve on her spine from osteoporosis and is really bent over... she cannot straighten up at all.

So when it came to my turn and I was having screaming fits with my DH and kids, and I wasn't sleeping, and sweating morning noon and night, and with crashing fatigue, I just thought, why not look into HRT anyway, so I got on to my GP, who told me to have a few naps and some sage tablets.

Ok, I said and I read up on it again, and posted here to find out a bit about it, and to think about my gut reaction to "medicating" myself in the light of me taking the pill years ago too, and anti histamines for my hay fever etc etc, and armed with new information I went back to my GP asked for a blood test, to see of my FSH levels were high, and hey presto, I'm in perimeno/ meno. I'm 48 this year, and looking back my whole cycle has been very erratic since my last kid was born 12 years ago. I wish I'd gone for a test earlier.

So my lovely GP who had since our last appointment also had enough of her own night sweats and irritability, had gone to a menopause conference and learned about the new preparations and the small risks outlined in more recent longitudinal studies, apologised for telling me to take naps and sage tablets and recommended the HRT she takes herself. She changed her mind with the new research.

I wanted a bio identical oestrogen gel I could rub into my skin and a bio identical, natural progesterone as well, so that's what she prescribed.

In a few days of using the oestrogen gel I noticed something, that I wasn't feeling furious, forgetful, exhausted or boiling hot. And also, and more satisfactory-ally for me, having my childhood experience, that my family actually wanted to be around me. It was like a boiling fog had lifted and the sun shine had come out again.

I consider HRT has saved my sanity, and saved my relationships with my loved ones. I feel fantastic.

I'm forever grateful my GP is a scientist who isn't going to stand on a position, but rather one who looked at the evidence from more recent research, informed herself and changed her mind about HRT. She says I do t have to come off it u till im 70 and then we'll see. She intends to take it for as long as she can too. The HRT she takes is a very low dose, as is mine.

I've rather gone on a bit about it here, I don't think I'm evangelical and am surprised to see how polarised the thread has become.
For sure, rock on, and lucky you if you don't need it, but for those of us who do, it's a life saver. I found the menopause board section here really informative, and posters to be well informed.

Information is so important in this issue as my knee jerk irrational reaction to HRT was my mothers', (that it was medicating a natural process, and they HRT gives you cancer the instant you take it )

I'm so glad I took the time to investigate it further, for eg reading the guidelines, as jumping to a conclusion without looking at the information from the most recent research wouldn't have served me well, and certainly didn't do my mum any good.

OP I'm not sure if my post has helped you in any way, but I do hope that you're enjoying the best of health soon.

am surprised to see how polarised the thread has become.
I'm surprised that you're surprised .
HRT (like weaning babies) is something most middle aged women have an opinion on and these opinions are often different depending on individual circumstances.

Alco If you read my posts and the links, you will see that I am not giving an opinion - I'm quoting the BMS, IMS and NICE. I doubt you have even read any of their websites and information. This is nothing to do with an opinion- mine or anyone else's- it's based on scientific research and current medical practice.

Gobbin This is a health forum not AIBU.
Your posts show prejudice and a lack of understanding of HRT which, even though I've left links to show how you are out of date, you don't appear to accept that.
HRT is not a form of religion- I am not evangelical- but I have picked the brains of my consultant over 8 years, and have spoken to other consultants (incl Panay) and the BMS as part of my professional role.

This I have my mum's 30 year experience of HRT as my reference point. All the way from horse hormones to the present day via double blind drug-in-association-with-HRT trial. It was her choice, and based on her experiences, it wasn't mine.

Your mum's experience is irrelevant really because HRT has moved on; there are many different sorts.

Maybe take a step back and ask what if anything you are adding to this discussion. Women need support during the menopause, They don't need you telling them:
-You're rushing off to get HRT at the first sign of a hot flush (as if that was a bad thing anyway)

• HRT is a bad thing
• HRT is time-limited

-symptoms will come back once you stop -I had an easy menopause and didn't need HRT therefore you shouldn't either.

To tell other women not to use HRT simply because you coped without is a bit , and advising women not to listen to drs like Panay because you think they are corrupt/ hand in glove with pharma companies is just barmy.

PollyPerky of course you're giving your opinion, and selectively posting links that you think will back it up.
Other people including health professionals and "menopause experts" have also read the research and come to their own opinion. They don't all agree with each other, but that's how knowledge moves on.
There's no such thing as absolute facts, we have to use our own judgement.

Pollyperky is the mumsnet self appointed hrt tsar, maybe she does have good intentions but, paradoxically her dictatorial approach and insistence that menopause be viewed as a deficiency disorder serve only to further polarise views when she becomes involved with the discussion.

(I fully expect her to complain about this post and get it deleted 😯 perhaps even send me a pm to give me a good telling off😱)

Anyways, let's hope that medical science continues to move on so that women can get the help they need with menopause related symptoms🙌

Alco the links are not 'selective'; they are mainstream, current guidelines.
If NICE isn't mainstream, where data was collected from all over the world, then I don't know what is!

glass LOL

The points I have made are not 'mine' but those of people far more qualified and scientifically qualified than I am. Dismiss them if you want to, post others saying the opposite- I don't care, to be honest! All I want is for women to know the latest research and they can make an informed choice. Some women manage fine without HRT, others don't.

There's a great video by the IMS which discusses HRT and its pros and cons, and is well worth watching.

Dorje
I wanted a bio identical oestrogen gel I could rub into my skin and a bio identical, natural progesterone as well, so that's what she prescribed.

That's wonderful. That's just what I wanted but could not get. I am so glad things have moved on about this - with your GP at least. As I could not get this, and did not want the alternatives on offer, I did without - though I did get some plant based progesterone cream on the internet called Wellsprings.

I can see just what you mean after what happened with you and your mother.

I was difficult/screamy too, but always was horrible with periods also. With no HRT, I was able to help my mood swings with a careful diet and frequent snacks to keep better, more even blood sugar levels. The natural progesterone cream helped too.

Would you write out what the exact name of your bio-identicals are? Were you able to get them on the NHS?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3085555/

This is about some trials using magnesium for night sweats (easy to get, no prescription needed). The trials were on cancer patients with menopause, not because there is something different about their night sweats, but because these patients are at a higher risk of developing cancer from HRT so it cannot be risked in their case.

Laughable, absolutely laughable. Go back and read the OP and your first couple of responses to her Polly and ask yourself who gives you the right to ask, nay demand, to be told WHY she has stopped, WHO has told her she has to stop etc.

At least mine validated the CHOICE she has made and tried to be positive about a post-menopause outcome.

OP
I just ache all over...sleeping at funny times...headachey.....get hot at bedtime but not sexy hot! pain like period pain/cramps

I think magnesium, Vit B incl vt B12, Vit D if you live in a quite dark place
eating a good diet with lots of vegetables and protein (maybe more of that than before) plus cutting down on refined foods and sugar if you have those -and eating a little ever three or four hours -have helped me manage to get through the menopause without HRT.

In fact, I think if I had done that before I would have suffered less from PMT which I used to get very badly.

I also have not put on weight, or got bigger bosoms even though I also stopped smoking (went on to nicotine gum) then stopped nicotine gum too.

KindDogsTail good advice on diet and vitamins .
Magnesium supplements especially made a huge difference for me.
Also found I couldn't tolerate alcohol, made symptoms worse.