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Vitimin D, can it have this effect?

252 replies

SistersofPercy · 09/07/2015 13:23

We had a discussion over on AIBU last week about being pale and someone mentioned vitamin D if you don't get in the sun much. Now, I don't go out a great deal it has to be said and if I do I avoid sunlight.

I have Hypermobility and scoliosis so take 30/500 codeine, Diazepam and Nortryptilene daily for this. It's tended to leave me pretty lifeless as well as the painkillers affecting my bowels (TMI, apologies)

Anyway, just over a week ago I started to take vitamin D supplements. This week my bowels are as normal and regular as they were before the painkillers, my joints are a lot less clicky and I have double the energy. I've been in the garden all morning, pottering and moving plants around etc, something I've put off for the last 4 months because I didn't have the energy.

Whats going on here? Have I found something I was lacking with the Vit D or am I just having a good week lol

OP posts:
Eva50 · 11/08/2015 15:28

How long have you been taking it for LavenderRain?

jenenberry · 11/08/2015 15:37

To those of you popping Vit D like Smarties.
You probably need to know that if you are lacking in Vitamin K2, then the calcium from the Vitamin D won't go to the bones, where it should end up.

A build up could mean that a lot will stay in the arteries and calcify, causing a nasty build-up and potentially even heart problems later on.

You shouldn't be taking high doses of Vitamin D without checking whether you are having sufficient K2.

(and that's not to be confused with K1)

articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/03/26/the-delicate-dance-between-vitamins-d-and-k.aspx

LavenderRain · 11/08/2015 18:57

Ooh jenenberry that's abit worrying! I guess I have been popping them like smarties Confused

eva I have been taking them for a month

BestIsWest · 11/08/2015 20:01

Also There are some conditions where vit D is low but blood calcium is high (eg Primary Hyperparathyroidism) and taking additional vitamin D can exacerbate this and have all kinds of nasty side effects -as Jenenberry says

SofiaAmes · 12/08/2015 15:05

Just thought I would repost the place where you can have private Vitamin D tests done. It's only £28. www.vitamindtest.org.uk/ I haven't used it, but someone else recommended it on another thread about Vitamin D.

Katymac · 12/08/2015 15:12

Sofia, does your Dad have any opinions/recommendations about Vitamin K?
eg how much? how often? etc

goodasitgets · 12/08/2015 16:48

Any advice on red hair and vit D? Google has given me two contradicting studies Confused
Been outside for 3hrs or so today without suncream

SofiaAmes · 12/08/2015 23:09

Yes, it's important and he's written a paper about it, but I can't remember the advice. I think you generally get enough in your diet, but let me ask and get back to you on it.
Regarding red hair and vit d....I don't think it's the hair that is the issue, but rather the very pale skin that generally goes with it. I would guess that you are better off taking vitamin d pills than sitting in the sun and risking getting sunburnt.

goodasitgets · 12/08/2015 23:33

The two articles I have found say (maybe not in these exact words!)
"Redheads are better at making their own Vit D"
"Redheads can't absorb sufficient vit D"
Confusing Grin
I know redheads need approx 20% more anaesthetic so I guess we have to be weird with other things too Wink
No burning, it was about 22c today and pleasant, blue skies and I was out 1pm - 4pm

goodasitgets · 12/08/2015 23:34

This is the main quote that seems to be floating around
Redheads can’t absorb sufficient Vitamin D due to low concentrations of eumelanin in their body. This may sound like bad news, but this lower melanin-concentration means that gingers can cleverly produce their own Vitamin D within their body when exposed to low light conditions.

SofiaAmes · 13/08/2015 02:29

wow, cool....I didn't know that. I did have a red head friend in high school and one day we came back from the beach and he was totally sunburnt and my father greeted him at the door with great glee and asked him "Could I have a urine sample, please?" Only one of the many embarrassing scientist fathers can do....

goodasitgets · 13/08/2015 02:34

Ha!! Grin
Yeah I'm a bit confused now as to whether I should be supplementing or not
I remember going in for a tooth extraction and the dentist muttered "red hair" and gave me 8 injections for it. Apparently enough to knock a horse out and it was starting to wear off v v quickly

Katymac · 13/08/2015 07:41

Goodasitgets - how funny, I had some dental work done and I needed 22 'units' of anaesthetic which also nearly wore off before they had finished the dentist said it was enough to sedate an 18 stone man who drank like a fish!! I thought it was because I was nervous but now I wonder if it was my very pale (almost redhead like) skin. I don't have red hair but I do have auburn highlights (well I did when it wasn't grey!)

Clarella · 13/08/2015 14:54

Just following Smile

Bettertobehealthy · 14/08/2015 21:51

.
I have been away for a few days ..... Latvia .... for a bit of a break ! At 57 degrees North Latitude, the sunshine is not that strong , a bit like Aberdeen. I did manage to get some sunshine, so some Vitamin D at least!

I see that there have been a few questions on here , that I hope I can add a little information or even  help with. 

ihearttc I see your level came back as 62, of 25hydroxyD, the storage form of Vit d. this is after a holiday in strong sunlight in the mid-east a couple of months ago . I would have expected your level to have dropped from round about 100 in the last couple of months, and it probably will continue to go down , not so quickly, because you are still getting some sunshine here in the UK. ( unless you are taking supplements now ? ) You have talked about your diagnosis of RA. Unfortunately the symptoms of RA , are similar to other rheumatic type problems, fibromyalgia, osteomalacia and so on. Many of which are found in people with low vitamin d. Your doctor wants to start you on methotrexate, presumably because he wants to limit any potential damage which may occur to your joints. As you know , RA is an autoimmune disease, many of which are linked to Vit D deficiency. Vitamin D is an immune system modulator, i.e it will help control overactive immune responses.
Your current level of 62 is about half that enjoyed by your ancestors , over millions of years. Although it is a common level in this country at this time of year, that does not mean it is optimal.

Your doctor has had many years experience in improving patients outcomes, you must listen to him, ( or her ) , but , to my mind, if you also improve your Vit D status , as I have suggested , with a daily input , it very well may help you. Try to get other nutritional inputs , eg veg and some fruit to optimal levels.( particularly bone nutrients ) Let your doctor know what you are doing. There is quite a lot of reseach going on concerning RA and Vit D , this website gathers together that research . It may be useful to look over. www.vitamindwiki.com/Overview+Rheumatoid+Arthritis+and+vitamin+D .

Please work in conjuction with your medical professional. For bone problems you must allow many months , if not longer, for helpful effects to occur.

Hope this is helpful,

BTBH

Eva50 · 14/08/2015 23:23

BTBH should we be taking vit k too?

AlpacaMyBags · 18/08/2015 12:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bettertobehealthy · 18/08/2015 21:31

Vitamin K Should we be taking extra ? Simple question .... ?

  Vitamin K (  i.e.  K1  )    and vitamin K2   have different functions, in our bodies.  Vitamin K1  is found in Greens,  there is lots of it there. Vitamin K2 is a bacterial product , that cannot be made by us.  Bacteria take K1  and convert it to K2, we use K2 as well , it is an essential nutrient, we would die without it, or suffer very serious disease depending upon the deficiency level.  

    (  Just as   Vit B12  is a bacterial product , another essential nutrient which we cannot make ourselves ).

In our gut we have bacteria which should convert some K1 to K2, which we then hopefully absorb. Some gut maladies may, I stress may , not be helpful to that absorption. some other people may , again I stress may, not be absorbing enough.

The function of K2 is to activate certain proteins ( osteocalcin, MGP )to enable calcium transport,( to bones, from tissues ) and very possibly other functions. In fact, the study of K2 is very much in progress, it would be wrong to say that we "know" all about it. There are very many other processes which determine where calcium is deposited, it would be simplistic to think that we know all the mechanism and all the "remedy" to put right any unwanted calcium deposition.

 One of the great misconceptions of Vitamin D supplementation is that it "puts up your calcium in your blood."   Blood calcium levels are determined by other processes,  primarily , your Parathyroid Hormone (PTH) level. it is the  PTH level which controls your kidneys and tells them how much Vit D hormone ( 1,25)  to make from your background Vit D (25hydroxyD) . It is this Vit D hormone (1,25) which tells your gut cells what percentage of the calcium that you consume they should transfer to your blood.  A lot , if not most of the calcium you consume will pass straight through. An adult needs about 200mg of calcium per day to replace that lost by excretion etc.  We probably consume about 1.5 grams on average ,  some people much more, some much less, depending upon your diet. The presence of Vitamin D ( 25hydroxyD ) , in sufficient quantities, allows your body to regulate, under the direction of another hormone which controls your kidneys,( PTH ) what your blood calcium level is.       If you are in a state of  severe vitaminD deficiency ,  i.e. less than 25 nmol/L  of 25hydroxyD ,   then  you will not be able to extract more calcium from your food,  IF YOU NEED IT .  If your diet is low in calcium, then the percentage you are able to extract may total less than the 200mg  that you require.     You body however MUST  keep  the blood calcium level at a fixed level,  the only way to do this , would be to mobilise calcium from the reserves in your body. That is your bones. That is why your bones can become weak, and is one of the reasons why  osteoporosis, osteopenia, osteomalacia may occur if you have a deficient level of VitaminD ( 25hydroxyD).       As I have explained,  your body must maintain  a fixed calcium level in your blood, otherwise your muscles , such as heart,also your nerves etc stop working properly. The PTH hormone will rise , instructing your bones to release calcium into the blood, keeping the level where it needs to be. 

  SO ,   although vitamin K2 level is very important ,  it will not be faced with a sudden surge of calcium , in your blood to deal with, if you take vitaminD  supplements.

( here I am referring to an average person with no hormone imbalances,or parathyroid problems, not suffering from sarcoidosis or granulomatosis. etc.) These are very rare conditions, but it is the reason why I say that anyone with such problems , also carcinoma etc should be talking to their medical professional caregiver. They know ALL your circumstances.

 If you are taking warfarin,  to thin the blood,  again , be careful if you take Vitamin K ,  it could, counteract the effect of warfarin. Again, you should be talking to your medical professional.    

If you are interested in more of the detail about Vitamin K , here is a link , to a talk , by the director of the vitamin K laboratory at Tufts University.It is a bit technical, however , she gives her opinion about whether we should additionally supplement with Vit K2, towards the end. Her opinion is No.

That is not the final word, however, scientific research is ongoing. In my opinion ,  at present we cannot say for definate.  IF  I was a person with inappropriate calcification ,  arteries, liver,kidney  etc,  then I would be considering K2 supplementation. I would have expected it to occur, independently of whether I was taking vitaminD supplementation or not. 

Sorry this is a bit wordy ... !

Hope it is helpful though

BTBH

PS. Grass fed cows ( not corn fed ) will produce K2, in their milk, concentrated in their butter. It makes a lot of sense, when you consider that such a rich calcium source such as milk will contain those ingredients that are needed to direct calcium to where it is needed. i.e. bones.

   Butters such as Kerrygold, and Anchor  are made from almost entirely grassfed animals.   If you are a butter eater, then it may be advantageous to use them , rather than cheaper corn fed butters. This is not a proven scientific fact, but a maybe a reasonable assumption.   Also the bacteria used to ferment Edam cheese produce some K2.  If you are a cheese eater, then again, this may be a route to ingest more.  This is not a recommendation to eat large extra amounts of fat..!, but possibly a reason to swap some of your current consumption to those above.

The highest concentration of K2 in food , is within a food known as Natto , a fermented soy product. A Japanese food ( I believe ).

Clarella · 18/08/2015 22:32

Wow! So interesting! I'd googled the k2 and came across the natto.

I wonder if kefir is similarly beneficial because of this? (Or is that simplistic?!)

Clarella · 19/08/2015 06:36

Hmm brief random Google says yes. Been thinking of trying kefir for some time (just looking after a toddler and a breeding super food seemed a bit much Grin)

mmmcabbagesoup · 19/08/2015 11:20

This is all so interesting. Sorry if I've missed this discussion but why do the NHS not take Vit D deficiency more seriously?

Although my GP has never been dismissive and has prescribed supplements, I've had rheumatology consultations, scans etc which must be costly.

Clarella · 19/08/2015 11:36

I think they are beginning to; there was a report on bbc news last week.

SofiaAmes · 19/08/2015 18:38

Just tried to get more information about Vitamin K from my father and ended up with a 1/2 hour lecture at 8am on biochemical pathways which left me none the wiser. The gist of it is that you need Vitamin K, but not clear how much. You should eat plenty of dark green vegetables to get Vitamin K, but how much is "plenty" is up for grabs.

Natto is kind of like Japanese Marmite...it's an acquired taste.

Clarella · 19/08/2015 20:41

I think somewhere I picked up there lots of vit k (must be k1) in dried herbs (probably more in dried due to amount per dry weight)

MissDuke · 26/08/2015 22:17

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34055529

Another interesting vit d article in the press