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Original poster

Unsure about vaccinations? Try reading "Deadly Choices"

449 replies

arkestra · 31/08/2013 12:41

I got Whooping Cough recently at age 43, what fun. Apparently vaccine immunity for WC wears off after a few decades. It was as ill as I have ever been and I was pretty much out of action for 3 months. There has been an increase of WC cases recently in the SW of England, where I live. I could rant at anti -vaccine campaigners, but what would be the point? I am more concerned that the people who are unsure have access to a clear statement of the pro-vaccine position.

So can I suggest that anyone who is unsure about vaccination reads "Deadly Choices" on the pro-vaccine front even if they read nothing else?

I just had my early summer ruined. But babies get killed by this kind of thing. I totally get why people find vaccines icky and unsettling, there are hard wired ways we intuitively think about our bodies that foster that kind of reaction. So just read this book if you're on the fence OK? It would be nice if lots of other 40-somethings don't irritate everyone else with their wheezing and self-pity Grin

(Gets back off soapbox)

OP posts:
englishteacher78 · 31/08/2013 17:20

Argh - it is not is it

Crumbledwalnuts · 31/08/2013 17:21

Most people are well aware that correlation is not causation. Other people believe thousands of temporal correlations require research. Don't you?

englishteacher78 · 31/08/2013 17:23

It can be useful yes. However, vaccination has done many marvellous things, smallpox anyone?
It is, as I said, a bit more complex. The issue tends to get politicised. In certain countries vaccination programmes are equated with US imperialism - this is a major factor in the failure to eradicate polio.

LaVolcan · 31/08/2013 17:26

It is, as I said, a bit more complex.

I think you will find that the majority of us already know that. But once we dare say this we are accused of being 'anti-vax', even when we have had ourselves/own children vaccinated.

I fail to see why we should have to switch our brains off, just because some rabidly 'pro-vax' can't or won't answer questions.

nickelbabe · 31/08/2013 17:29

Pag - i was a bit surprised when I met a real-life one!

LaVolcan - me too - cloth nappy, home birth, vegetarian, breastfeeder, chicken keeper.
i'm pro-vax because i believe it's the best choice for our society - i do believe in choice though, so would never disregard another's thoughts on the matter (although as stated above, it makes me more wary to be around them)

Crumbledwalnuts · 31/08/2013 17:29

Somebody always says smallpox. As if that means the MMR and other vaccines don't damage children. As you say - it's a bit more complex than just saying "smallpox".

englishteacher78 · 31/08/2013 17:33

Not sure why I'm getting attacked here - the it's more complicated than that is aimed at both sides!
I have always got vaccinated but then I have a chronic lung issue.
It does seem to be something that cannot be discussed calmly, sorry if my lighthearted comments didn't come across that way.
I dislike people who are strident for whatever viewpoint - for example I dislike both the Westboro baptist church and Richard Dawkins talking about religion (his biology is much better).

CatherinaJTV · 31/08/2013 17:33

Crumbled - you didn't read my post: I said, whenever I listen to Wakefield, I fact check one or two of his statements. Therefore, I am not lazy, I do do my homework. He is wrong, more often than not (the last thing I checked was his claim that there had "never been adverse effects to mumps monovalent vaccine", which of course is absolutely wrong). I admit, he could just not know what he talking about, but that is not much more flattering than the alternative that he is flat out lying.

Crumbled, why do you think Wakefield says so many things that are demonstrably wrong - is it ignorance, or intentional?

LaVolcan · 31/08/2013 17:34

Smallpox and MMR are irrelevant to a whooping cough debate.

I believe that the Whooping cough vaccine of the early 80s was acknowledged to have caused damage to some children. Is it correct that it has now been changed?

CatherinaJTV · 31/08/2013 17:34

Englishteacher - ha! I dislike Dawkins on religion, too ;)

TwasBrillig · 31/08/2013 17:34

I met a few at an AP type toddler group near me. If I'm honest its one of the reasons I left. I was pregnant with no 2 and terrified of a repeat serious illness.

I also fell out with an old uni friend over it. As I say, I was very touchy after my first child was so ill. Checking every twenty minutes after a coughing bought to see if she'd regained breathing. Every day. Every 20 minutes. Every night. Every time terrified. Lots of going blue, lots of a and e trips, two ambulances.

nickelbabe · 31/08/2013 17:35

smallpox is a very good example.
so is the measles epidemic
as is the annual flu vaccine

nickelbabe · 31/08/2013 17:36

Twas - that's what I would be doing too, i think.

Original poster
arkestra · 31/08/2013 17:40

LaVolcan: Pertussis vaccine was cleared of all charges in the end. Pp 40-44 of "Deadly Choices" Wink

OP posts:
nickelbabe · 31/08/2013 17:41

my little sister had mumps.
it was when ET came out - she had to miss it - she must have been 4.
my elder sister and I went out to the cinema with my dad and had ice cream.
I don't remember anything else about the mumps -i have no idea whether it was bad.

I also had a friend in school who had had TB as a baby. I was fascinated about her immunity.

Pagwatch · 31/08/2013 17:42

My DD isn't vaccinated. I should get her a bell maybe.

Pagwatch · 31/08/2013 17:43

I had mumps. I remember it quite clearly. We all had it. My mum said we were like a batch of hamsters.

CatherinaJTV · 31/08/2013 17:50

Crumbled, why do you think Wakefield says so many things that are demonstrably wrong - is it ignorance, or intentional?

LaVolcan · 31/08/2013 17:51

arkestra: I do believe that there were payments to whooping cough vaccine damaged children in the UK and I also believe that they have now changed the vaccine. I question how much an American author knows of the UK situation.

PoppyAmex · 31/08/2013 17:51

Andrew Wakefield is a proven liar and a profiteer - therefore his "research" is irrelevant to any sane, rational discussion on the matter.

When I think of the vulnerable population who can't be vaccinated and rely on herd immunity, it's very hard for me to consider anti-vax individuals as more than social parasites.

Original poster
arkestra · 31/08/2013 18:01

Incidentally LaVolcan I am answering your questions! You're clearly very suspicious of me and have questioned my motives, but you are not just firing off loads of random questions interspersed with personal abuse, and I respect that and I have responded to you on more than one point. Just because I choose not to respond to one particular person who kicked off by being snide to me does not invalidate my opinions.

It's not like I think medicine is above criticism. I know too many who work in the field for that Smile but you have to question a lot of people's motives to think that MMR, for instance, is a bad thing by this stage.

I'll give my own MMR vaccine reaction story. PFB had just had MMR. Was vomiting that same evening. "What a pain - bloody vaccine!" I thought. Then I started puking 2 hours later. Because it was gastric flu. Moral is that correlation is not causation. Although in the case of MMR/autism there is, as has been established in many studies, not even correlation.

There have of course been genuinely harmful vaccine reactions. They exist, truly they do. But based on what I've seen I have no doubt vaccines have in general been for the good. Like most on this thread I'm happy to look at evidence. But it does need to be evidence rather than assertions. A book can set this kind of thing out better than discussion threads in general. Hence my starting the thread with a book recommendation.

If it's Wakefield's book vs my recommendation I am very happy for people to read both and make up their own minds.

OP posts:
LaVolcan · 31/08/2013 18:04

When I think of the vulnerable population who can't be vaccinated and rely on herd immunity, it's very hard for me to consider anti-vax individuals as more than social parasites.

Do you include those people for whom the immunity has worn off, but have not checked their immune status?

Have you checked your own immune status recently? You might unwittingly find that you are one of the said parasites.

Original poster
arkestra · 31/08/2013 18:04

LaVolcan - give me a medical reference on UK Pertussis vaccine being found to cause problems and I'm happy to change my mind. Honest. Until then I will believe the author - who is actually something of an expert in the vaccines field.

OP posts:
LaVolcan · 31/08/2013 18:12

arkestra - this was a thread about whooping cough.

I can't see the point in talking about MMR. The only reason that Wakefield came into the debate was so that an opposing view point could be put. Offit vs Wakefield. Offit, I believe, has benefitted financially from the development of a vaccine, so it could be questioned how unbiased he is. Wakefield as far as I can tell, never said don't vaccinate, but has been deemed to be a liar and struck off in the UK.

LaVolcan · 31/08/2013 18:16

arkestra - give me a medical reference on UK Pertussis vaccine being found to cause problems and I'm happy to change my mind.
I think it used to, is what I said, and hence the change.

I am going out, but I will see if I can oblige before this thread comes to its natural end.

Until then I will believe the author - who is actually something of an expert in the vaccines field.

I don't have the same faith in him as an unbiased source.