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Unsure about vaccinations? Try reading "Deadly Choices"

449 replies

arkestra · 31/08/2013 12:41

I got Whooping Cough recently at age 43, what fun. Apparently vaccine immunity for WC wears off after a few decades. It was as ill as I have ever been and I was pretty much out of action for 3 months. There has been an increase of WC cases recently in the SW of England, where I live. I could rant at anti -vaccine campaigners, but what would be the point? I am more concerned that the people who are unsure have access to a clear statement of the pro-vaccine position.

So can I suggest that anyone who is unsure about vaccination reads "Deadly Choices" on the pro-vaccine front even if they read nothing else?

I just had my early summer ruined. But babies get killed by this kind of thing. I totally get why people find vaccines icky and unsettling, there are hard wired ways we intuitively think about our bodies that foster that kind of reaction. So just read this book if you're on the fence OK? It would be nice if lots of other 40-somethings don't irritate everyone else with their wheezing and self-pity Grin

(Gets back off soapbox)

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LaVolcan · 04/09/2013 08:42

Despite Offit's many credentials to show that he is of a finer clay than others, it looks as though he could do with adding a PR course to his portfolio, because making a claim about 100, 000 vaccinations later reduced to 10,000 was stupid and makes him look a fool.

Some of his papers, several of his interviews? Shouldn't that be all of his papers and interviews to back up your claim that you know MUCH more?

Crumbledwalnuts · 04/09/2013 09:29

Andrew Wakefield's motive is child health, and to investigate parents' concerns. He is a profoundly talented surgeon and successful researcher - a good man all round. He was deliberately destroyed.

Offit's claim about 10,000 vaccines, which he has never withdrawn, fatally flaws him. It's not clumsiness. His motive was not child health when he said it. His motive was propaganda, to quash parents' concerns and ensure greater uptake of vaccines from which he derived significant profit.

Beachcomber · 04/09/2013 09:44

I've read plenty by Offit. (Although not Deadly Choices as I was put off by the sensational use of 'anti-vaccine movement' which implies an attempt to polarize a serious issue and dismiss legitimate parental concerns, over the heavy and untested current vaccine schedule, as extremist views - a political tactic which implies an irresponsible attitude towards individual children's health).

I read this for example. The link is to the amended version which had to be published after Jon and Terry Poling pointed out the numerous errors in Offit's original piece.

I have also read this opinionated piece by Offit (which as we saw upthread was criticised for accuracy by Barbara Loe Fisher) and which was challenged for lack of accuracy yet again by the Poling family.

The message in his second piece about Hannah Poling and others who dare seek compensation for vaccine damage is frankly disgusting. Offit clearly seeks to rubbish government awarded compensation claims because they are bad for the reputation of the vaccine programme. He makes claims about the number of vaccines people can receive which are neither based in safety testing nor in clinical trials. He also doesn't seem to have a realistic grasp of what a vaccine actually is - he says that Hannah received 5 vaccines and then blithely lists the nine vaccines that she received. Has Offit been so influenced by the millions he and Merck make that he has forgotten the difference between an injection and a vaccine ? Or is he just assuming stupidity on the part of parents (again)?

Offit is a talking head for vaccine manufacturers and in particular Merck with whom he consults, receives research money and with whom he developed a vaccine which made him millions of dollars.

As to claims on here that Offit is a 'good man'. Mmmm, Offit is a rich man, Offit is a powerful man, Offit is a conflicted man, Offit is a man who spouts nonsense, Offit is a man who gets his facts wrong, Offit is a man with his finger in both pies; that of vaccine manufacture and public health legislature.

Beachcomber · 04/09/2013 09:49

Crumbledwalnuts I agree with you that if Offit were a 'good man' he would have withdrawn his silly misleading paper on how many vaccines a child could receive. His 10,000 crap should never have been published in a respected medical journal in the first place - if it had been written by a less powerful figure than Offit I doubt it would have been.

It shows a particular sort of arrogance for a doctor to publish such bullshit and then not withdraw it when it is challenged as being unscientific nonsense with no basis in medical reality.

I prefer my doctors to show a little more humility. An arrogant doctor is a dangerous doctor.

arkestra · 04/09/2013 18:21

Beachcomber - an end-of-thread gift for you, which I came across while catching up on some of the issues this thread raised.

You may have seen this already, but it felt like it was a stronger indication of "alarming (pertissis) mutations" than either of the two such papers you posted earlier - in that it puts toxin (Ptx) increase driven by vaccine selection pressure front and centre of the whole paper (rather than being solely or partly about less virulence-related aspects such as pertactin).

wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/15/8/pdfs/08-1511.pdf

So I think I now have a better idea of what you were talking about re "alarming mutations", and I agree with you that this is interesting stuff.

The paper states:

"We propose that the crucial event, which shifted the
competitive balance between ptxP1 and ptxP3 strains, was
the removal by vaccination of immunologically naive infants
as the major source for transmission,"

Eg their proposal is that vaccination is driving the virulence by virtue of infants being protected. So is it better to stop vaccinating, and go back to infants getting pertussis? Perhaps not. But clearly there is a problem here, and how to improve things is not clear to me at all.

It is a pity that the pro- and anti-Offit posters could not get any kind of shared view on the Offit "10,000" quote. But I guess there are such vastly differing views of Offit's moral worth in play here that hoping for any common ground on how we interpret his words and actions is pretty idle? Probably best we don't go there again on this thread Smile.

But I am interested in what you think of the paper, if you can face any more pertussis.

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Crumbledwalnuts · 04/09/2013 18:34

"It is a pity that the pro- and anti-Offit posters could not get any kind of shared view on the Offit "10,000" quote."

What on earth kind of shared view do you expect? He posited a ludicrous theory which is impossible to test and would no doubt lead to an infant's death if such a test were possible. His motive was not child health but profit, power and reputation. What possible middle ground do you imagine could ever be reached people between who support that point of view and those who believe it's morally disgusting?

arkestra · 04/09/2013 19:19

Crumbled: I totally get how bad you think Offit is. It's just we aren't getting anywhere on a shared view there.

The increased virulence point has a really interesting entwining of good and bad vaccine consequences and I'm thankful to BC for pointing it out - and wondered what people's thoughts were.

If people insist they only want to discuss Offit's moral failings then I'm unlikely to learn anything. I know you think poorly of him already! I think the least interesting part of this debate is people calling others wrong and bad. It just doesn't interest me as a debating point. I find it boring when pro-vax people call vaccine sceptics selfish too. It's just not my scene.

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arkestra · 04/09/2013 19:25

Evening routine now but will check in later. Quite understand if everyone too bored to respond!

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Beachcomber · 04/09/2013 20:34

Um, thank you arkestra for the link. As it happens I have read it before as it is part of the body of work by Frits R. Mooi that the study "Small Mutations in Bordetella pertussis Are Associated with Selective Sweeps" which I linked to upthread is the most recent.

I'm surprised that you think the 2009 paper is a "stronger indication of alarming (pertussis) mutations" than the 2012 paper I posted. Perhaps you didn't read the 2012 paper in its entirety? The concern posed by both pieces of work is the same - the emergence of ptxP3 strain, the virulence of said strain and the relevance of its emergence on public health.

Crumbledwalnuts · 04/09/2013 20:48

In terms of public health: the breakdown of bortella pertussis and parapertussis cases is not given in the part of NHS England that's easily available to public search. In fact if you search "parapertussis" on the website NHS England, there are no hits at all. None, zero. There's no breakdown in the number of cases of pertussis and parapertussis and no information about a variant of vaccine resisitant pertussis. That is, no information that the vaccine does not protect you against a growing strain of whooping cough. That is very bad. Do you agree Arkestra? That's misleading by omission and has implications for informed consent.

Crumbledwalnuts · 04/09/2013 20:50

You have to think of it in terms of people who do not look at scientific papers but might, for example, search the website for information about their concerns. Interestingly there's nothing on the BBC website either. Interestingly because of the historic and continuing lack of interest among health correspondents in any story which challenges the DoH orthodoxy.

arkestra · 04/09/2013 20:51

Hi BC - thought you had probably already seen it but thought it worth mentioning.

I thought that the 2009 concentrated more exclusively on the Ptx aspect. After reading the 2009 paper, I went back to both papers you sent. That 2012 did indeed flag the Ptx, but I felt it was far less salient as it also covered a number of other aspects of the consequences of vaccine selection pressure.

So I didn't quite really pick up on the connection between those changes and your comment on "alarming mutations" from the 2012 paper, but from the 2009 I got both a very immediate "that's what Beachcomber was talking about!" reaction, and also their take on the mechanics behind the selection which I actually can't see mentioned in the 2012 paper at all.

I find the mechanics fascinating, because it means the vaccine protection for infants that I am so nauseatingly enthusiastic about may be the direct cause of my getting a heavy dose of Ptx. Ironic or what Smile.

So while the 2012 paper may well, to a reader more careful and educated than myself, be a better source on pertussis vaccine selection pressure, I found the 2009 paper was actually a far more direct take on what I felt was your central point about the selection pressure acting to increase toxicity. So the next time you are talking to a pro-vaccine type who you reckon could use more context, you may get more kick out of the 2009 paper because it makes it harder for them to miss the point.

That's all I meant to say really, apart from asking what you felt the answer was, if indeed there is one?

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arkestra · 04/09/2013 21:32

Crumbled: I had not heard of parapertussis before this thread. Nor did I realise that pertussis outbreaks are a 3-to-5 yearly inevitability as far as current control techniques appear to allow. Etc. Most institutions have an understandable reluctance to even admit - and certainly to spread - information which they feel may undermine their current publicly stated position.

Not everyone who self-identifies with chunks of the medical establishment is blinkered or captured by special interests. Read "Bad Pharma" by Ben Goldacre for an example of this.

All I can really say on a personal level is that the more individuals on the opposite sides of issues can communicate to whatever degree is possible, the better it is for some all. It's not a football match with winners and losers - I know you know this from your previous comment!

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arkestra · 04/09/2013 21:44

Crumbled: I didn't really answer your question re "is the website rubbish?" I think that we could maybe do better. But how? What do we write on the website? What do we change that will better help make people go the right thing? For instance, do you think pertussis vaccines are not a good thing overall, or is it more the information hiding that annoys? Perhaps the (certainly paternalistic if so) thinking is "don't mention parapertussis or they won't get their shots!" What is the way forward from that?...

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Crumbledwalnuts · 04/09/2013 21:45

It's not in any way understandable that public health institutions should seek to hide information of importance to public health and informed consent. It says a lot that you think it is understandable. It's not: it's wrong.

Please stop advising me to read Bad Pharma. There are more people in the world than Paul Offit and Ben Goldacre.

Crumbledwalnuts · 04/09/2013 21:48

Let people make up their own minds. Supply the information. Parents' brains do not stop functioning after a baby is born.

Crumbledwalnuts · 04/09/2013 21:49

Excuse the brusqueness but you keep talking as if you are only interested in information - but your posts contain loaded and judgemental comments.

arkestra · 04/09/2013 21:54

By "understandable" I mean it's an obvious consequence of what happens with any group of people in the real world. You get groupthink and exclusion of alternative perspectives.

This applies to any self-identified collective.

I'm not saying it's something we should resign ourselves to. Just that ignoring it and trying to effect change makes as much sense as trying to build a brick wall while viewing gravity as a fictional and arbitrary social construct.

The problem is trying to break out from my own ghetto of preconceptions and learn something new.

No more reading suggestions from me - and sorry for causing offence.

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Beachcomber · 04/09/2013 22:07

Here's a reading suggestion for you as someone who recommends Offit's book. I can't find a link to the text on the internet so here is a C&P of it. I have bolded a sentence that I think is relevant to the worth of Offit's book, but the whole of Congressman's opening statement is well worth reading.

CONGRESSMAN DAN BURTON'S OPENING STATEMENT FOR THE CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEE PROBE INTO CONFLICTS OF INTEREST IN THE CDC-FDA ADVISORY COMMITTEES 15 June 2000

Below is Congressman Burton's Opening Statement Opening Statement
Chairman Dan Burton, Committee on Government Reform
?FACA: Conflicts of Interest and Vaccine Development: Preserving the Integrity of the Process?
Thursday, June 15, 2000, 1:00 pm , 2154 Rayburn House Office Building Washington, DC 20515

Today, we are going to continue our series of hearings on vaccine policy. For the last few months, we?ve been focusing on two important advisory committee and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) rely on these advisory committees to help them make vaccine policies that affect every child in this country. We?ve looked very carefully at conflicts of interest. We?ve taken a good hard look at whether the pharmaceutical industry has too much influence over these committees. From the evidence we found, I think they do.

The first committee is the FDA?s Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee (VRBPAC). This Committee makes recommendations on whether new vaccines should be licensed. The second committee is the CDC?s Advisory Committee on Immunizations Practices (ACIP). This committee recommends which vaccines should be included on the Childhood Immunization Schedule.

To make these issues easier to understand, we?re going to focus on one issue handled by these two committees ? the Rotavirus vaccine. It was approved for use by the FDA in August 1998. It was recommended for universal use by the CDC in March 1999. Serious problems cropped up shortly after it was introduced. Children started developing serious bowel obstructions. The vaccine was pulled from the U.S. market in October
1999. So the question is, was there evidence to indicate that the vaccine was not safe and if so, why was it licensed in the first place? How good a job did the advisory committees do? We?ve reviewed the minutes of the meetings. At the FDA?s committee, there were discussions about adverse events. They were aware of potential problems. Five children out of 10,000 developed bowel obstructions. There were also concerns about children failing to thrive and developing high fevers, which as we know from other vaccine hearings, can lead to brain injury. Even with all of these concerns, the committee voted unanimously to approve it.

At the CDC?s committee, there was a lot of discussion about whether the benefits of the vaccine really justified the costs. Even though the cost-benefit ratio was questioned, the Committee voted unanimously to approve it. Were they vigilant enough? Were they influenced by the pharmaceutical industry? Was there appropriate balance of expertise and perspectives on vaccine issues? We?ve been reviewing their financial disclosure statements. We?ve interviewed staff from the FDA and the CDC. The staff has prepared a staff report summarizing what we?ve found. At the end of my statement, I?ll ask unanimous consent to enter this report into the record. We?ve identified a number of problems that need to be brought to light and discussed.

Families need to have confidence that the vaccines that their children take are safe, effective, and truly necessary. Doctors need to feel confident that when the FDA licenses a drug, that it is really safe, and that the pharmaceutical industry has not influenced the decision-making process. Doctors place trust in the FDA and assume that if the FDA has licensed a drug, it?s safe to use. Has that trust been violated? How confident in the safety and need for specific vaccines would doctors and parents be if they learned the following:
1 That members, including the Chair, of the FDA and CDC advisory committees who make these decisions own stock in drug companies that make vaccines.

  1. That individuals on both advisory committees own patents for vaccines under consideration or affected by the decisions of the committee.
3 That three out of five of the members of the FDA?s advisory committee who voted for the rotavirus vaccine had conflicts of interest that were waived.
  1. That seven individuals of the 15 member FDA advisory committee were not present at the meeting, two others were excluded from the vote, and the remaining five were joined by five temporary voting members who all voted to license the product.
  2. That the CDC grants conflict-of-interest waivers to every member of their advisory committee a year at a time, and allows full
participation in the discussions leading up to a vote by every member, whether they have a financial stake in the decision or not.
  1. That the CDC?s advisory committee has no public members ? no parents have a vote in whether or not a vaccine belongs on the childhood immunization schedule. The FDA?s committee only has one public member.

These are just a few of the problems we found. Specific examples of this include: Dr. John Modlin? He served for four years on the CDC advisory committee and became the Chair in February 1998. He participated in the FDA?s committee as well owned stock in Merck, one of the largest manufacturers of vaccines, valued at $26,000. He also serves on Merck?s Immunization Advisory Board. Dr. Modlin was the Chairman of the Rotavirus working group. He voted yes on eight different matters pertaining to the ACIP?s rotavirus statement, including recommending for routine use and for inclusion in the Vaccines for Children program. It was not until this past year, that Dr. Modlin decided to divest himself of his vaccine manufacturer stock.

At our April 6 autism hearing, Dr. Paul Offit disclosed that he holds a patent on a rotavirus vaccine and receives grant money from Merck to develop this vaccine. He also disclosed that he is paid by the pharmaceutical industry to travel around the country and teach doctors that vaccines are safe. Dr. Offit is a member of the CDC?s advisory committee and voted on three rotavirus issues ? including making the recommendation of adding the rotavirus vaccine to the Vaccines for Children?s program.

Dr. Patricia Ferrieri, during her tenure as Chair of the FDA?s advisory committee, owned stock in Merck valued at $20,000 and was granted a full waiver.

Dr. Neal Halsey, who serves as a liaison member to the CDC committee on behalf of the American Association of Pediatrics, and as a consultant to the FDA?s committee, has extensive ties to the pharmaceutical industry, including having solicited and received start up funds from industry for his Vaccine Center. As a liaison member to the CDC committee, Dr. Halsey is there to represent the opinions of the organization he represents, but was found in the transcripts to be offering his personal opinion as well.

Dr. Harry Greenberg, who serves as Chair of the FDA committee, owns $120,000 of stock in Aviron, a vaccine manufacturer. He also is a paid member of the board of advisors of Chiron, another vaccine manufacturer and owns $40,000 of stock. This stock ownership was deemed not to be a conflict and a waiver was granted. To the FDA?s credit, he was excluded from the rotavirus discussion because he holds the patent on the rotashield vaccine.

How confident can we be in the process when we learned that most of the work of the CDC advisory committee is done in ?working groups? that meet behind closed doors, out of the public eye? Members who can?t vote in the full committee because of conflicts of interest are allowed to work on the same issues in working groups, and there is no public scrutiny. I was appalled to learn that at least six of the ten individuals who
participated in the working group for the rotavirus vaccine had financial ties to pharmaceutical companies developing rotavirus vaccines. How confident can we be in the recommendations with the Food and Drug Administration when the chairman and other individuals on their advisory committee own stock in major manufacturers of vaccines?

How confident can we be in a system when the agency seems to feel that the number of experts is so few that everyone has a conflict and thus waivers must be granted. It almost appears that there is a ?old boys network? of vaccine advisors that rotate between the CDC and FDA ? at times serving simultaneously. Some of these individuals serve for more than four years. We found one instance where an individual served for sixteen years continually on the CDC committee. With over 700,000 physicians in this country, how can one person be so indispensable that they stay on a committee for 11 years?

It is important to determine if the Department of Health and Human Services has become complacent in their implementation of the legal requirements on conflicts of interest and committee management. If the law is too loose, we need to change it. If the agencies aren?t doing their job, they need to be held accountable. That?s the purpose of this hearing, to try to determine what needs to be done.

Why is this review necessary? Vaccines are the only substances that a government agency mandates a United States citizen receive. State governments have the authority to mandate vaccines be given to children prior to admission to day care centers and schools. State governments rely on the recommendations of the CDC and the FDA to determine the type and schedule of vaccines.

I am not alone in my concern about the increasing influence of industry on medicine. Last year, the New England Journal of Medicine learned that 18 individuals who wrote drug therapy review articles had financial ties to the manufacturer of the drugs discussed. The Journal, which has the most stringent conflict of interest disclosures of medical journals, had a recent editorial discussing the increasing level of academic research funded by the industry. The editor stated, ?What is at issue is not whether researchers can be 'bought' in the sense of a quid pro quo, it is that close and remunerative collaboration with a company naturally creates goodwill on the part of researchers and the hope that the largesse will continue. This attitude can subtly influence scientific judgment.?

Can the FDA and the CDC really believe that scientists are more immune to self-interest than other people? Maintaining the highest level of integrity over the entire spectrum of vaccine development and implementation is essential.

The Department of Health and Human Services has a responsibility to the American public to ensure the integrity of this process by working diligently to appoint individuals that are totally without financial ties to the vaccine industry to serve on these and all vaccine-related panels.
No individual who stands to gain financially from the decisions regarding vaccines that may be mandated for use should be participating in the discussion or policy making for vaccines. We have repeatedly heard in our hearings that vaccines are safe and needed to protect the public. If the panels that have made the decisions on all vaccines on the Childhood Immunization Schedule had as many conflicts as we found with rotavirus, then the entire process has been polluted and the public trust has been violated. I intend to find out if the individuals who have made these recommendations that effect every child in this country and around the world, stood to gain financially and professionally from the decisions of the committees they served on. The hearing record will remain open until June 28 for those who would like to submit a statement into the hearing record

arkestra · 04/09/2013 22:08

Both sides in vaccine threads build a demon on the other side and load it up with bogeyman-style characteristics.

It's just so boring. Both camps are like this:

Us: Not A "Camp" At All, How Dare You
Them: Definitely A Camp

Us: Trying To Prevent Needless Suffering And Death
Them: Responsible For Needless Suffering And Death

Us: Open-Minded
Them: Closed-Minded

Us: Generally Calm and Rational
Them: Often Aggressive, Sneery and Defensive

Us: Caring
Them: Selfish

Us: Arguing In Good Faith
Them: Relying On Dishonest / Misleading Rhetoric

Us: Trying To Get At The Real Issues
Them: Avoiding The Real Issues

Boring, boring, boring. Everyone shouts at a mask and runs a mile rather than make the slightest concession. Collectively the whole thread has really got no further than saying "read Wakefield and Offit and make your mind up".

And I am as bad as everyone else. What a waste of time!

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Crumbledwalnuts · 04/09/2013 22:09

You started off this thread with talk of lost causes and zealots. If you dislike it so much you could apologise for it, sincerely.

arkestra · 04/09/2013 22:11

That is not a swipe at your post BC by the way, which I didn't see until I'd made mine.

I completely agree that conflicts of interest in the vaccine industry are a huge potential source of issues and well worth investigating.

I only keep on mentioning Ben Goldacre because he is someone on the orthodox side who agrees and so is hopefully evidence that not everyone is completely blinkered.

I have clearly reached the end of my tether so will bugger off for the night. Peace.

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Crumbledwalnuts · 04/09/2013 22:13

He was vile to MMR parents.

arkestra · 04/09/2013 22:14

Crumbled: I do not think you are a lost cause or a zealot and sincerely apologise for calling you both.

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arkestra · 04/09/2013 22:16

Crumbled: now if you can search through the thread and find the various points where you have abused me, I would be content for either an apology or for you to simply make the effort to gather them all together and confirm that you stand by them.

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