Unsure about vaccinations? Try reading "Deadly Choices"

[arkestra]

I got Whooping Cough recently at age 43, what fun. Apparently vaccine immunity for WC wears off after a few decades. It was as ill as I have ever been and I was pretty much out of action for 3 months. There has been an increase of WC cases recently in the SW of England, where I live. I could rant at anti -vaccine campaigners, but what would be the point? I am more concerned that the people who are unsure have access to a clear statement of the pro-vaccine position.

So can I suggest that anyone who is unsure about vaccination reads "Deadly Choices" on the pro-vaccine front even if they read nothing else?

I just had my early summer ruined. But babies get killed by this kind of thing. I totally get why people find vaccines icky and unsettling, there are hard wired ways we intuitively think about our bodies that foster that kind of reaction. So just read this book if you're on the fence OK? It would be nice if lots of other 40-somethings don't irritate everyone else with their wheezing and self-pity

(Gets back off soapbox)

The less interesting one is that WC vaccine more or less wears off by your 40's. Worth knowing but not important in itself.

Sorry, but I had to supress a laugh at this - not important and yet your initial post was to say It was as ill as I have ever been and I was pretty much out of action for 3 months. It would have been worth knowing if there was some action you could have taken to prevent it.

But WC kills babies and the more WC vaccination we get the fewer babies it kills.

But not if their WC is caused by parapertussis for which the vaccination is ineffective. (I don't know whether it has killed any babies, I may add.)

But now you know that immunity wanes you can get your immunity checked to measles, mumps, rubella ? You'll be doing that soon, I guess?

You do actually understand that by your reckoning, you need to get your immunity checked for the sake of the "herd"?

As I said, no debates with Flat Earthers. But happy to read a book recommendation if you have one.

You do understand that Arkestra? Are you struggling with understanding or with the answer?

Try Callous Disregard by Andrew Wakefield, and enjoy.

Thanks. I will read that, honest! I do recommend "Deadly Choices" if you want a good summary of how the other side to you thinks. Always good intellectual exercise even if you are absolutely certain in your beliefs.

Have a good weekend y'all

I am never sure how many 'anti-vacc' people there actually are tbh.

The only people I personally know who don't vaccinate are those who have family history or genuine concerns based on personal experience. Like me.

The 'anti-vacc' stuff often seems be an excuse to stereotype and be rude.

In fairness it would have been perfectly simple for the op to craft an informative link rather than putting in digs and starting a fight.

I know how the other side thinks. I've read around. I was on the other side. Most people start off on "the other side".

Way to avoid the question btw.

"Sorry to hear about your Mum nickelbabe. The rest of the world isn't your mum though."

not my mum.
my mum's not that stupid.
ex's mum.

My Mum isn't stupid either but she IS a worrier and as such can be influenced by what she reads.

I am never sure how many 'anti-vacc' people there actually are tbh.

The thought among some posters is that if you don't buy their 'pro-vacc' stance 100% then you are anti-vacc.

OP, IMO did come on this thread to be provocative. Babies are dying (nice piece of emotional blackmail) and those nasty anti-vaccers are to blame. Not the people whose immunity wore off, caught the disease and spread it before they realised, or those who are vaccinated, don't realise that they are infectious with their mild dose of the disease, so go and spread it also.

I met a woman in a cafe once, when I was reading stories.
she didn't know me or my history.
I had commented that we were avoiding dairy and soya to see if it would help DD's eczema.
the very first thing she said was "has she had her vaccines?" I was a bit because I hadn't been talking about development. "why?" I asked
"it might have caused her eczema"

that opinion had not been sought or welcomed. and it actually immediately made me not want to be anywhere near her child, who was a couple of months older than mine. And it made me angry, saying on the one hand that i shouldn't have vaccinated my child just in case it triggered a small side effect, which implies that she cares about my child's health, but on the other hand, obviously having not had her own child vaccinated (i'm assuming - people who vaccinate don't tend to blame vaccines for everything)- telling me that my child's health and life wasn't important enough that she was willing to put it in danger.

Jake - wasn't referring to your mum being worried by the press's need for sensationalism, but about my ex's mum believing absolutely everything the Daily Mail says.

Pag - i see them a lot on a birth forum I frequent. They're mostly from the US, the people there, but also all over the world, and they're into home births and non-medical births (the kind they can't get over there, the kind that we take for granted), breastfeeding, slings and cloth nappies, but they're also mainly anti-vacc. (in fact, if someone asks a question about vaccinations, they immediately jump into the anti-vacc argument and if you put a pro-vacc stance across, you get flamed)

Andrew Wakefield's research has been discredited - for a look at how the debate was musunderstood by the press from the start - and why people should have more respect for maths in general, and statistics in particular, read Bad Science by Ben Goldacre.
It's an emotive issue. That's why it results in name-calling.
And I do get my flu Jab every year. I'm asthmatic and could do without getting full on flu!

Argh! Misunderstood - stupid fat thumbs

Englishteacher: why don't you read his book? I hope you get your MMR immunity tested too. For the herd.

It may important to point out that whooping cough immunity wanes - period. It doesn't matter whether you had the shot or coughed for your immunity. It will decline and you'll be susceptible again.

Andrew Wakefield lies as he breathes - he is a great talked, lovely voice. Every time I see a clip on youtube, I fact check a couple of his statements. He is always lying. It is fascinating how he manages that..

Yep Nickel

But tbh that's why I said 'people I personally know'

I think it is easy to make assumptions about the real world if you pay too much attention to a group drawn together across the Internet.

The people I know either treat vaccination as an automatic part of their child's early years (as I did) or they are hesitating/unsure because of personal experience/circumstances. And all those who don't vaccinate take that decision seriously.

I was into homebirth, breastfeeding, cloth nappies (it was the norm mostly, disposables were rubbish back then) but it doesn't make me 'anti-vax'. Nor does it make me 'pro-vax' if that means you are not allowed to ask questions and expect sensible answers.

englishteacher Why do you mention Andrew Wakefield? Did he say anything about whooping cough?

Englishteacher: Ben Goldacre is great. "Bad Pharma" is a particular shocker. Just 'cause I like science and all that doesn't mean I trust the drugs companies

I have had actually. On several occasions. Most importantly when I worked in A and E and might have had contact with pregnant women.
I'm not being confrontational just pointing out that Andrew Wakefield's research has been heavily criticised. In fact, it resulted in a disciplinary due to the unethical way it was carried out.
If you don't want to vaccinate, fine, but don't use Wakefield to justify a position.

Catherina that is why you should get your immunity checked regularly if you lecture other people about herd immunity. Thank you for affirming that. People who give those lectures, and aren't regularly checked, are hypocrites.

Your post is highly defamatory of Andrew Wakefield and rather lazy.

I mentioned Andrew Wakefield as he was mentioned higher up the thread. His 'research' is often used to justify either an anti-vax or an argh-I'm-not-sure-vax position.
Not all vaccines are the same in safety and efficacy. The argument has a tendency to get over simplified. Two things I've stolen from Ben Goldacre:
Correlation is not causation
Is it a bit more complicated than that

Nobody was using Wakefield to justify a position. I like him, I like his book, and the OP asked for a book recommendation rather than debate with a flatearther, which was her rather insulting way of describing me. She's come back to the thread again without answering my question either.

Englishteacher it sounds like you were required by your job. Do you recommend that all people who lecture others about herd immunity should get their immunity checked regularly - even if not required by their jobs?