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New Published Study Verifies Andrew Wakefield’s Research on Autism!

217 replies

chocchild · 04/08/2013 19:56

Has anybody come across this in the news? Maybe it's not newsworthy enough! healthimpactnews.com/2013/new-published-study-verifies-andrew-wakefields-research-on-autism-again/

OP posts:
Beachcomber · 04/09/2013 21:25

CatherinaJTV I quoted on this thread what he said and gave the time in the video. Around 12.13;

"By 1985 the monovalent Urabe vaccine had been given to about about 5 million persons around the world, predominantly in Japan. There had been no reports of meningitis with the single vaccine."

In what world does the quote above = "single mumps vaccine had never caused adverse effects" ?

So - did you get it wrong or did you make it up?

Zideq · 04/09/2013 22:29

I was referring to this

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2005/2410.html

Crumbledwalnuts · 04/09/2013 22:58

Isn't it obvious. The judge thought he wouldn't win and that was one of the main reasons for his approval, along with length of time.

"the trial will turn upon fundamentally serious issues going to the heart of the Claimant's honesty and professional integrity."

The claimant and his honesty and professional integrity had been comprehensively smeared and deliberately discredited, so much so that he wouldn't win.

Can you answer my question now?

Crumbledwalnuts · 04/09/2013 22:59

approval = refusal

Zideq · 04/09/2013 23:06

Sorry, what question?

Crumbledwalnuts · 04/09/2013 23:09

Doesn't it concern you that Professor Walker Smith was re-instated, so undermining evidence against Andrew Wakefield?

Zideq · 04/09/2013 23:11

Sorry got it, not it doesn't the ruling doesn't vindicate Wakefield as it all hinged on the question of medical practice or research...

Crumbledwalnuts · 04/09/2013 23:17

Yes Hmm that's right.

Put simply, if Prof Walker Smith did not subject the children to invasive and unnecessary procedures then how can Andrew Wakefield have done so? He wasn't clinically involved with the children, carrying out the biopsies.

The judge was completely scathing about the inadequate GMC reasoning and the superficial way the GMC examined the evidence.

Zideq · 04/09/2013 23:24

Where in the ruling does it say that he didn't subject the children to invasive and unnecessary procedures. It is all on benefit of doubt type thinking of what he thought he may be doing and the GMC not adequately exploring this

Zideq · 04/09/2013 23:26

The court case exonerated Walker Smith because it could not be proved he knew he was doing research as opposed to clinical tests. He comes out of that rather badly, admitting he didn?t know what he was doing, but in the process he threw Wakefield under a bus, effectively divorcing himself from the research component of the Lancet 12 cases, and leaving Wakefield to take the blame all on his own.

Exoneration of the Wakefield paper it is most definitely not. In fact in court the Judge and Walker Smith?s lawyers both agreed that the idea that MMR causes autism has no merit.

Crumbledwalnuts · 04/09/2013 23:33

The tests were ordered for clinical reasons. Therefore they were not "unnecessary procedures".

"Exoneration of the Wakefield paper it is most definitely not. In fact in court the Judge and Walker Smith?s lawyers both agreed that the idea that MMR causes autism has no merit."

It is not "the Wakefield paper", there was a team of 12. And it didn't say that MMR causes autism.

Zideq · 04/09/2013 23:44

Even if you accept that test were ordered for clinical reasons (again the ruling is based on what he though he was doing) you have still got the massive conflict of interest issues falsified data.... Yawn must we go around this:

" And it didn't say that MMR causes autism."

Zideq · 04/09/2013 23:49

In your opinion what clinical indications existed to subject these children to lumbar punctures?

Zideq · 05/09/2013 00:01

Why did Wakefield falsely reported that a gruelling five-day battery of invasive and distressing procedures performed on the kids - including anaesthesia, ileocolonoscopies, lumbar punctures, MRI brain scans, EEGs, radioactive drinks and x-rays - proposed for the lawsuit, was approved by the Royal Free's ethics committee?

Crumbledwalnuts · 05/09/2013 06:36

You do know that the children were ill Zideq? Can I just clarify that you're aware of that before we go on? And you do know the transfer factor patent wasn't in AW's name?

"Yawn must we go around this"
Yes I'm afraid we must, however much it bores you to have got it wrong.

I'm at work for the rest of the day. Let me know. See you later.

Beachcomber · 05/09/2013 08:15

Zideg your posts are full of misinformation I'm afraid. Can you link to the Walker-Smith appeal document and quote the evidence for this statement?

The court case exonerated Walker Smith because it could not be proved he knew he was doing research as opposed to clinical tests. He comes out of that rather badly, admitting he didn?t know what he was doing

Because it is utter bollocks. As anyone who has read the appeal document would know. Have you actually read it yourself? Did you misinterpret it or have you in fact not read it and are parroting something or someone else?

Here is the appeal document for anyone interested in reality and truth.

Of particular interest is the section on child 12.

Beachcomber · 05/09/2013 09:09

Why did Wakefield falsely reported that a gruelling five-day battery of invasive and distressing procedures performed on the kids - including anaesthesia, ileocolonoscopies, lumbar punctures, MRI brain scans, EEGs, radioactive drinks and x-rays - proposed for the lawsuit, was approved by the Royal Free's ethics committee?

This is utter bollocks too. And what is a 'radioactive drink' when it is at home? Do you mean barium sulphate as used in barium meals by any chance?

You appear to have confused project 172-96 with the Lancet paper - which is surprising if you have read the Walker-Smith appeal document. From the appeal document;

i) None of the five clinicians involved in the investigation of the Lancet children who gave evidence to the panel considered that they were following Project 172-96.

ii) None of the children fitted the hypothesis to be tested under Project 172-96, in that none of them had both received a single or double vaccine and had developed disintegrative disorder. The great majority had received MMR vaccine and been diagnosed with autism.

iii) No parent was required to sign either the consent form in the proposals submitted to the Ethics Committee or in the revised form approved by it. With one exception (child 2 ? see paragraph 34 below) the only consent forms signed were for diagnostic colonoscopy and the additional research biopsies approved in September 1995.

iv) In every case investigations were followed by a discharge letter prepared by Dr. Casson which set out a diagnosis of the child's condition and by a recommendation for treatment. In some cases, the treatment produced an apparent marked improvement in gastrointestinal symptoms and behaviour.

v) Dr. Pegg was not the only responsible person to whom Professor Walker-Smith stated that the investigations were clinically indicated; he told Mr. Else, Chief Executive of the Royal Free NHS Trust that they were, as Mr. Else confirmed to Dr. Wakefield on 4th September 1996; he gave a lecture at the Wellcome Trust on 20th December 1996 in which he spoke of the investigations and gastrointestinal diagnoses of the first seven Lancet children; on 6th February 1997, he wrote to Dr. O'Connor, a Consultant in Public Health Medicine responsible for funding the referrals of children 6 and 7 to him, enclosing a five page explanation of the rationale, aims and potential therapeutic implications of the investigations, in which he and Dr. Wakefield set out the clinical justification for them. Although the latter document was described by the GMC as "defensive" it was never suggested to Professor Walker-Smith that he deliberately misled his interlocutors about his intention.

vi) Professor Walker-Smith had no rational motive to begin research before it was authorised, carry it out in breach of the requirements of the Ethics Committee after it was authorised or deliberately to mislead the Ethics Committee and others about his intention. Unlike Dr. Wakefield, he was agnostic or cautious about the claimed link between MMR and autism and gastrointestinal disorders. On 29th and 31st July 1997 he wrote privately to Dr. Wakefield to express his and Dr. Murch's concern that their professional reputation would be damaged by association with work prematurely leaked to the media.

vii) As Miss Glynn accepts, a clinical protocol can, in principle, prescribe multiple identical investigations into patients with complex and intractable problems in an attempt to diagnose their condition.

IceBeing · 05/09/2013 10:36

zideg welcome to the parallel reality....the main thing it has going for it is that people can be happy in their little world away from the real one and live in a place where (certainly in BC's case) homeopathy works and writing research papers without ethics approval is a noble act self sacrifice.

Tbh I wouldn't worry about it...after all to paraphrase Tim Minchin isn't the real world enough?

Zideq · 05/09/2013 10:58

As i have already linked to the full text yes I have read it and IMO a good summation can be found here:

scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/03/08/andy-wakefield-exonerated-because-john-w/

Beachcomber · 05/09/2013 11:56

Right. I thought you might be parroting Orac's blog.

I don't believe you have read the appeal document in full yourself - either that or you have intentionally misinterpreted it or you don't understand it.

IceBeing - why the need to get rude and personal (have you and I ever actually even had a discussion together)? Can't you argue the actual subject?

Beachcomber · 05/09/2013 12:15

I have read that piece by Orac before - he quite clearly shows that he doesn't understand the appeal document either.

His blog piece is not a 'summation' BTW, good or not. And neither is it a summary of it.

It is a blog - an opinion piece.

LaVolcan · 05/09/2013 12:31

His opening sentence immediately tells you that he is not an unbiased source.

I sense a disturbance in the antivaccine crankosphere. and then goes on to spout being polite, utter twaddle.

This is the problem - sensible unbiased advice is now virtually impossible to obtain.

Zideq · 05/09/2013 12:42

Even, if we accept your reading of the verdict how does it exonorate Wakefiled:

"Was being paid to conduct the study by solicitors representing parents who believed their children had been harmed by MMR

Ordered investigations "without the requisite paediatric qualifications" including colonoscopies, colon biopsies and lumbar punctures ("spinal taps") on his research subjects without the approval of his department's ethics board and contrary to the children's clinical interests when these diagnostic tests were not indicated by the children's symptoms or medical history.

"Act[ed] 'dishonestly and irresponsibly' in failing to disclose ... how patients were recruited for the study".

"Conduct[ed] the study on a basis which was not approved by the hospital's ethics committee."

Purchased blood samples?for £5 each?from children present at his son's birthday party, which Wakefield joked about in a later presentation.

Beachcomber · 05/09/2013 13:05

Zideq - you appear to be quoting in your above text. You need to link to what you are quoting so that it can be seen within a context.

As I said above, I think you are confusing different pieces of work and the ethical approval and requirements that are relevant to them.

What for you does ethics committee reference number 172-96 apply to? And what does reference number 162-95 apply to? (This should be perfectly clear to you if you have read the Walker-Smith appeal document.)

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