First measles death suspected in Swansea

[CatherinaJTV]

www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/measles-death-suspected-Swansea/story-18746494-detail/story.html#axzz2QtsV9Z49

25 year old man found dead, measles suspected, autopsy pending.

No, of course not! Where did I say that I would force anyone to do anything?! Starlight asked why we don't vilify people for refusing penicillin, I answered the question. Obviously if someone is allergic to something in the MMR (eggs for example) they wouldn't be offered it. Which is why such people require herd immunity for protection. Which requires others to take some social responsibility and take their non contraindicated children for an MMR.

'Incidentally, would you refuse penicillin, if doing so would cause you serious harm?'

Yes, if my family had a history of penicillin being fatal/causing other problems that I on balance would prefer less than those caused by refusing.

I would and do, also look at long term affects. There are good reasons to refuse penicillin even if it does not cause immediate health problems.

"The WHO are hoping to eradicate measles in Europe by 2015"

It is not possible to eradicate a disease in a geographic area (1) by voluntary vaccination (there are lots of studies on this) and (2) with frequent & rapid plane travel with parts of the world where there is no such initiative.

Amanda, WHY do you think people don't inject their children with the MMR?

If it is a selfish act as you seem to think, what gains do those families and children have over and above yours?

Why are they being socially irresponsible? Why do you think they are chosing this?

Amandine - I didn't say force, I said expect.

At the time when MMR is offered, babies will probably not be showing signs of autoimmune illnesses, mitochondrial disorder, or any other reason why they might be susceptible to vaccine damage.

So what do you do?

"Just give the jab and hope for the best" hasn't worked very well for many people, including some on this thread.

Starlight - I'm still a little confused and I'm sorry if I haven't helped.

MMR is safe for most people but not all (eg people who've had cancer treatment). But those people are told not to have MMR anyway.

So are you saying its still not safe for people to take it even if tehy are not one of those special cases?

If that's the case then why are all the Welsh doctors/nurses etc being given it?

Surely the point is that you don't know if your child will have a bad reaction to the MMR until it is potentially too late.

I don't think any parents chooses to go against government policy without long and hard consideration.

Why are done parent's Genuine concerns dismissed as bring socially irresponsible. Tea and sympathy won't get you very far if something goes horribly wrong nor will a letter of apology or whatever from the Primary Care Trust etc.

I feel sorry for people who have to rely on herd immunity and many on these threads in such a position are being very vocal in their disdain for those who have chosen not to give their child the MMR. The reason for their concern is to ensure the best possible outcome for their child which is all any parent should care about.

Social responsibility is /should be a secondary concern to any parent. I for one would not put my child at risk in preference for another. Call me selfish or whatever - I am doing what I think is right by my child and that makes me a good parent.

But not knowing if your child will have a bad reaction is like not knowing if you will get run over by a car. It might happen but it probably won't. And everyone is saying that hte chance of being very ill from measles is much much much greater than something happening from the MMR - one person in a million??

'But those people are told not to have MMR anyway.'

That is not true. A thorough investigation of an individuals statistical likelihood to react badly to the MMR is not done. At a general level, 'some' advice is given for broad groups, but not at an individual level.

Otherwise the patient information leaflet would not show the possible side-effects, or at least say that they are only possible if you'd had cancer.

My brother could have been tested for his likelihood to react to the DTP but at whole population level that test would have been expensive, and carry its own risks probably.

For a child who will react to the MMR, for them that risk is 100%. Not 1 in a million.

And there are levels of knowing. No one would be certain that the MMR would have any bad affects on him after the DTP did, but it would be recommended that he didn't have it or any further vaccinations. His risk increases with the knowledge but that doesnt mean there are any certainty he will suffer from side effects of the MMR.

People can and do work out their own risk. Two of my children are unvaccinated against measles. One becaue he is too young and the other because she suffers from a number of autoimmune conditions where it has been recommended that she holds off for a while. My eldest with autism has had it, though it didn't cause his autism or as far as I can see make it any worse.

We've just been to a playground where a mother openly pushed around in a pram her child who had measles, declaring the fact . Now that IS selfish. However I still won't be getting my children jabbed for the moment despite regular letters from the PCT and the GP.

Hang on - you first said that some people aren't told to not have the jab, and then you say that your DD was told to wait???

DD wouldn't have been told to wait had I not read the research done further research and then got an expert opinion, off of my own back.

Nor was my brother told to wait, and it had what will be a fatal effect.

Hugo bear

That's the point isn't it- it probably won't. Not definitely.

I don't walk my son down a motorway, as that would put him in danger. I judge the risks as I see them.

Also not everyone who has measles dies or has serious complications. I and my 4 siblings had it and we are all fine.

As far as I know it no investigations are taken into suitability for vaccines. It is very much one in one out and if you have the audacity to ask any questions you are treated like a pariah. The irony of the phrase herd immunity is not lost on me in my opinion the children are treated like cattle.
I took my son for a private consultation re a vaccination schedule. This lasted an hour involved extensive familial medical history and blood tests etc. The only reason the NHS don't do this is cost and a few vaccine damaged kids is collateral damage in the broader context.

I do wonder if they introduce the chicken pox vaccine into the routine vaccinations for children and people decline that that will then be accused of ignorance/selfishness. No doubt chicken pox will be the next killer disease.

No, I don't get it. Being 100% convinced that you are going to be the one in a million that gets a bad dose isn't logical.

That's like being convinced your going to win the lottery.

still, I suppose thats what the national lottery do to get people to buy tickets - it could be you!!!!

My brother was 100% likely to be affected by the DTP. It really didn't change things simply because anyone was convinced of anything beforehand.

You're making no sense.

For someone who is affected, their risk was 100%. It really doesn't matter what they were thinking before they got it.

"Being 100% convinced that you are going to be the one in a million that gets a bad dose isn't logical"

You don't have to be 100% convinced that you'll get unlucky. You only need to be convinced that you might.

I really don't think it's 1/1mn, by the way, judging by the number of rational & articulate people I have met, spoken to, and read on MN who firmly believe that their children were damaged by vaccines.

By the way, some of you people are confusing probability with risk.

If anyone's interested, I can explain the difference tomorrow.

I dont know, Cotedasur - I heard about a woman who got a payout for her child she said was damaged by the vaccine but that was 10 days after he had it! How do they know it was the vaccine??

When DD was a toddler she got ill with different things almost every week! 10 days was enough time for her to get two different bugs! I remember being worried about this and I spoke to the doctor and she said that this was quite normal in little ones as their immune system was under constant attack and it was just fighting away and building up immunity. And she's absolutely fine now and hardly ever gets ill, except for the occasional 24hr throwing up but i think that's because she doesn't wash her hands properly.

And shes been absolutely fine with the vaccinations too, better than our cat George who would always be a bit sluggish and showing his inner eyelids for a couple of days when he had his annual jabs (but that was because he had the cat flu as a kitten and did have a proper reduced immune system and everything).

'I dont know, Cotedasur - I heard about a woman who got a payout for her child she said was damaged by the vaccine but that was 10 days after he had it! How do they know it was the vaccine?? '

So on the one hand you're saying that we should all trust science and apparent 'evidence' and on the other hand you say your suspicious of it's truth!?

Well tbh I'm suspicious of your story. It takes YEARS and financial resources like you would not believe to even bring a case for compensation, let alone get it awarded and during that time the family are treated with utmost comtempt, put through pychology assessments and often raised for social services investigations.

That's a horrible thing to say . Why would I lie about my own DD???

I don't think she's accusing you of lying about your daughter Hugo - I think she's talking about the boy you mentioned who got compensated for vaccine damage.

But it's true.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-11125343

10 days is a long time for a toddler. Its very sad that this little boy got ill, buthow do they know it was the MMR?? My DD would come down with different sicknesses every week at that age.

"how do they know it was the MMR?? My DD would come down with different sicknesses every week at that age."

Did she come down with any sicknesses that caused fits, convulsing, and left her unable to talk, walk or stand without help?