First measles death suspected in Swansea

[CatherinaJTV]

www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/measles-death-suspected-Swansea/story-18746494-detail/story.html#axzz2QtsV9Z49

25 year old man found dead, measles suspected, autopsy pending.

'but when all the evidence tells us that vaccination works'

But it doesn't. Though I suppose it depends on your definition of 'works'.

It appears to work at a whole population level, but it isn't guaranteed at an invididual level. Neither is contracting the disease, and neither is developing complications from the disease.

I am suspicious of anyone claiming that vaccinations are without risk. All medicines carry risk, both known and unknown. That the risk of not taking a medicine is more than taking it, is down to the individual to assess and many individuals would like more information before making their decision. Unfortanately requesting such information often gets a response of at best pity, but at worst ignorant ramblings about irresponsibility.

And for the billionth time, Wakefield did not say that the MMR causes autism. However, my db's consultant did say that the DTP was the probably cause of his kidney failure.

My DD picked a dandelion on the way to school this morning, which i think might explain her bedwetting.

I know scientists say there's no proof that dandelions make you wet the bed, but people still say they do and theres no smoke without fire.

Actually, she picked a dandelion last week too and she's wet the bed two nights in a row now. So maybe it's true after all???

Where did I say that Wakefield said that?
And where did I say that vaccination was completely risk free? Of course it isn't, the NHS list the possible side effects themselves! I said that the risk from harm is greater from the natural disease than the vaccination. So for me it was worth the tiny risks to protect my children. I also never said that it works for every single person who has it, which is why we need herd immunity. To protect the 5% (or whatever, depending on the vaccine) who it doesn't work for, or who can't have it for medical reasons.

People don't know enough about autism to know what causes it. Research is increasingly pointing to toxins that they are exposed to but what triggers autism in one individual as opposed to another wil be dependent on their genetic make up and predispositions.

My personal belief is that our factory maternity services cause a lot of autism, but that has not been proved though there is some research that shows it is an area worth investigating more.

Will the government/anyone do this? Nope. Because the implications are too potentially costly as our maternity services are run on a tight budget wrt care but with money thrown at the 'interference' provision.

"My personal belief is that our factory maternity services cause a lot of autism"

Can you explain a bit more about that?

'I said that the risk from harm is greater from the natural disease than the vaccination.'

For everyone? Really?

Not for my terminally ill brother.

Maybe picking dandelions causes autism too, Starlight.

After all, there's been no research to say a link between dandelions and autism doesnt exist.

yes. Interference with the hormones around the time of birth that sets the developmental pathway for the brain development, with particular regard for Oyxtocin (the 'social' hormone).

Babies are born to survive the environment they are born into. If they are getting the message through high levels of adrenaline and reduced levels of oxytocin, their developmental pathway is set for a more hostile world from which they must protect themselves and withdraw.

It's a theory Ken as there is a lot of research at the moment about how introducing Oxytocin artificially helps teenagers with social interaction. There used to be research that suggested autism was 'triggered' around the time of birth but that was stopped/not developed further. I think it should be.

I also think that even if I am right, it would not be the ONLY cause of autism. Autism isn't medically tested for, but diagnosed by identifying a list of behaviours, so the causes are most likely multiple.

I couldn't possibly comment on your brother's situation, and I am sorry to hear that he is so unwell; I was explaining my decision to vaccinate my children. For the vast majority of people the risk from vaccination is far lower than the risk from measles.

I know scientists say there's no proof that dandelions make you wet the bed, but people still say they do and theres no smoke without fire.

Do they? Dandelion is a known effective diuretic and has been known as such for a very long time, hence the idea that they make you wet the bed. I wouldn't take it too literally.

All you are doing is ridiculing people with valid opinions, often backed up by scientific evidence. Ridiculing and belittling is a great tool for winning and argument that you can't win on the facts.

I guess the bottom line is every parent has to make a choice. How do you get reliable information? I would not take any medicine unless I had read the patient information leaflet neither would I let someone inject my child unless I had the best idea of what the risks are. You can request a P.I.L on MMR from any chemist or your doc.
Then I would look at the actual number of recorded deaths directly resulting from measles (and not an underlying condition like asthma!).
After all that I might start wondering why the government needs a vaccine damage payment department.

Hi, the yellow card is designed for reporting 'suspected' side effects to a medicine, Sometimes further down the line a link is proven sometimes its not proven but large numbers of yellow cards covering a particular reaction to a medicine would indicate a risk prior to conclusive evidence being obtained.
The point is that any unexplained symptoms that occur relatively soon after taking a medicine should be reported esp when there is an unexplained death!

Presumably hugobear if many many parents believed very strongly that dandelions were responsible for their childs autism some research would be done to establish if this were indeed true.

Not sure where you're going with that comment tbh.

But it's a fact that MMR is safe, LadyFortescue. There's no research that says it isn't. So I'm a bit confused by you saying its not safe

The patient information leaflet says it isn't.

Sorry Hugo, can you just point me to the place where I stated that MMR was not safe?

I neither said it was safe nor unsafe. But as to your postulation that there is no research that says it isn't, well, that isn't really true. There is plenty of research that says that it can be unsafe for some kiddies. Some of that research comes from the manufacturer of the vaccine itself.

Even the JCVI do not claim that any vaccination is 100% safe. They just claim that as far as they know to date, it is the safest way to protect against disease.

What I did say to you is that your comparison with Dandelions is bollocks (and factually incorrect!)

Sorry LadyFortescue - I thought you said it wasn't safe.

Do you think it is safe then?

The patient information leaflet says it isn't safe for everyone.

Are circular arguments your best defense against something you're not all that clear about?

Well, penicillin isn't safe for everyone, but we still call it 'safe' because for most people it is safe. If you know what I mean

We don't vilify people for chosing not to take penicilin.

fwiw, My Grandma was allergic to it. It wasn't safe to her. I wouldn't 'call' it safe for her. It could kill her.

And actually i don't know anyone responsible that says penicillin is safe.

The difference is that your decision to refuse penicillin only affects you. If you refused to vaccinate your child against measles, and then he or she went on to contract it and unknowingly spread it to a 3 month old baby, and that baby died, then your decision has led to another's suffering.

Incidentally, would you refuse penicillin, if doing so would cause you serious harm?

So what is your point? That if decision to not take penicillin affected others, you would expect people allergic to penicillin to take it anyway and face death, because they have some duty to others in the community?