why do parents refuse their baby / childs vaccines?

[bethjoanne]

in the uk we are so lucky to have an nhs---- doctors ,nurses ,treatments and vaccines we should be so grateful.in third world countries babies /children die of terrible diseases and also our relatives eg great great great grandmas would have done anything to have their children vaccinated IT WOULD HAVE BEEN THERE DREAM TO HAVE AN NHS AND VACCINES, instead they had to witness their child suffer i dread to think what they went through.
what country you are born in is luck of the drawer.
we should be grateful for medical care and vaccines available to us and have our baby/ child vaccinated.
i cannot believe some parents are so selfish and ruthless putting others at risk and starting an epidemic what happened in history and other third world countries .when the nhs is here to help and protect us now.x
ps think about babies 0 day old to 15 months who are too young to be covered /vaccinated.10 babies have died recently from whooping cough.also there has been 2 well known footballers had meningitis recently so there is reported cases,surely this needs nipping in the bud .
why are parents still refusing to vaccinate?

Not at my kids' school thankfully. No vaccination, no entry.

It doesn't happen a lot at all Brycie. Ive never heard of it happenings among my friends and colleagues. That's just scaremongering and anti-vac talk.

Sorry what is scaremongering? In my experience if someone has very clear arguments and has doen research its very counter-productive to wave the arguments aside, for example that comparison above was like blaming acne on clouds. People will dig in their heels and won't listen and even worse they don't take it seriously. It is much better to linkto websites which I think you suggested earlier and which I completely agree with. It matches their argument with exactly the same kind of argument or response. JotheHot I don't know what you meant by calling a spade a spade but I think if you meant a very glib response without the detail and the research of the sort that Elaine was talking about, then I think it might be quite satisying but is ultimately not going to really change peoples minds.

I suppose I read posieparker's comparison ( I think it was her) and thought, that's just treating parents as muppets, and no parent wants to be treated like a muppet so they'll just switch off.

I haven't seen any anti vaccination argument which is very clear or anyone who has done proper research who doesn't vaccinate (against medical advice).

There are a few posters who have genuine concerns and have spoken with gps/drs etc and come to an agreement regarding their dc's vax. That's the responsible way to do it.

But there are also a lot of posters who are misguided, misinformed, paranoid and deluded.

To be honest that is the sort of reaction I'm talking about. If you look at some of the posts on the thread you can see there are people who've got very clear ideas (and have talked to immunologistsk and statisticians!) and if you ignore all that, they are just going to ignore you. I have found that the best way is to present evidence which matches the sort of evidence and arguments they come up with. Again I would say, if you want to persuade people to vaccinate then it's going to be much more effective to come up with the evidence than to call them deluded! Not that I have ever called people deluded, I wouldn't do that, but it's definitely my experience that peopple take you more seriously if you take them seriously. If you just come up with the "acne clouds" comparison or say things like "deluded " they will think you are opinionated rather than informed, and to be honest even if you do come up wit the research and still are dismissive in that way, you won't have the effect you want. This is truly what I believe and I think it happens in all walks of life and all disputes! There is so much research out there to persuade people and if that's not enough then "calling a spade a spade" ! will DEFEINITELY not change their minds.

I agree with Brycie

The problem is that when any opinion questioning vaccination is offered, and the response is not simply negative but profoundly and aggressively hostile, those who have concerns end up having no place to voice those concerns or express doubt except for dodgy website.

Again. It may make people feel marvellous to be oh so very right and they can bask in the righteousness of their opinions. But the net result is that the hectoring, arrogant, name calling throws the baby out with the bath water.

I just wish people would behave like they are on a website 'by parents for parents' rather than fancying themselves internet science ninjas.

It's great. Well done. But you leave those with genuine concerns no where to go except straight into the arms of those you so despise.
It's pretty childish.

Are people going to listen and be swayed by someone who smacks the desk and tells them they are thick and deranged and ignorant? Does that ever work? Or someone who says 'you have concerns.what are they. Where have you looked for info. What would help you feel more comfortable' . It's not difficult.

Its just that's no fun. Far more fun to shout ' thick ignorant deluded ...

I don't understand, genuinely don't understand why the people who clearly feel entitled to the intellectual high ground behave in such a patently stupid way. It's just illogical.

And so any thread about vaccination never engages the concerned parent. Because who, without the hide of a rhino, would post 'I am really concerned. I haven't vaccinated because it feels so risky' . So the threads become about a few entrenched vociferous posters from both extreme sides of the argument relentlessly ripping each other apart. Anyone trying to say 'but it is complicated and scary and it is, for some, a really scary decision' gets shouted down.
It's batty.

And fwiw people who call a spade a spade are usually boorish whatever the topic.

I think the ones who bask in self righteousness are those who believe they are so 'well informed' because they have spent a few hours on google and/or the crankosphere and aren't they marvellous for not being 'sheep' and going with the 'herd' unlike the other 'sheeple'. personally I think that they want to be defiant to authority and quite enjoy it

But their reasons for doing so are anchored in misinformation, lack of understanding and lack of realisation what they don't understand, as well as a hefty dose of paranoia and conspiracy theorising.

As I said, if you have genuine concerns then you should discuss with your gp and ideally get a referral. Not happy? Find another gp. I think parents do have a right to have concerns listened to and addressed.

Well we will have to disagree.
I think beating up on parents just because you feel morally entitled to do so is wanky. But you seem happy
[shrug]

Elaine, being completely honest here, we probably agree on the basics of this. But I think you will never ever change anyone's mind with a post like that.

I haven't 'beaten up' on any parent and I certainly haven't moralised. Don't be silly

I've never criticised any individual's choice, just the evidence on which it may be based.

Brycie -whose mind am I trying to change? Actually, I have done irl. A mum at school was talking about Wakefield and the mmr. We ended up having a long chat and she did change her mind

aha but did you call her paranoid and deluded? I bet you didn't

And I must admit I thought you were trying to change people's minds on here! Apologies. But come on, talking about conspiracy theorising, delusion and paranoia is beating up on parents, admit it.

'misguided, misinformed, paranoid and deluded'

I think it is a bit lame ass to suggest that you don't criticise individual choice when you repeatedly stereotype and ridicule anyone who holds that opinion. Just because you don't say 'you, mrs miggins are misguided, misinformed etc etc does not negate the effect.

As I said, we have to agree to is agree. I am just baffled that the desire to sneer and lecture overwhelms the desire to potentially persuade someone on line.

Marvellous that you have done it in real life. But I am sure that in real life your manner is less like Professor Umbridge.

Agree to disagree.

'Agree to is agree' sounds like an odd fortune cookie

Sorry but I do find conspiracy theories rather deluded and paranoid - like all govts jn the western workd being in the pocket of big pharma??? And I did tell the mum at the school that I thought those theories were indeed developed by deluded and paranoid people. She had doubts, thats a different kettle of fish! But I certainly told her what I think and we discussed.

There's a huge difference between people who have concerns but are open minded to those who have decided that vaccines are bad and seek anything which will confirm their decision.

The aim is to have every child vaccinated. And if a child has a bad reaction that is still considered fine because of the benefit to the majority. But they will deny the bad reaction is caused by the vaccine. The same as they tell us GM crops are safe. Nuclear energy is safe. yeah right.

My kids go to private school, they make their own rules. But in new York state, exemptions are only for religious or medical reasons, so you'd basically have to like.

I don't think calling people who vaccinate 'sheeple' is a way to make friends, right leonie?

Vivienne - you perfectly exemplify the attitude of anti-vaxers. For example, nuclear energy is one of the safest ways of producing energy and far better than carbon based fuels. Yet it seems scary so it's vilified. Same with vaccinations. It's distrust of authority.

Lie, not like. And new York state does refuse exemptions.

Fwiw
If anyone is interested.
I am very pro vaccine. Mine have had all of theirs and if DD was alive she would most definately have had the HPV vaccine.

However, despite this and despite me not really understanding or agreeing with those that do not vaccinate,
The people I know who don't are not the selfish old hippies I perhaps once imagined them to be.

I am sure there are people who don't vaccinate because they are lazy or stupid.
I can honestly say I have not come across them.
People think long and hard about it and whilst I rather they would, they have a choice not to.

You can have fully vaccinated children with parents who pontificate and preach yet think its ok to take their poxy kids out in public.

And I mean poxy in its literal since btw.

I've seen Leonie on this threads, she has no desire to make friends, only push her biased agenda in a rude manner. It would be nice to discuss this rationally (on BOTH sides) but I'm afraid it's far too emotive to do so.

*these threads

To add, I do actually understand why some people don't vaccinate and while I'm not sure I would do the same, I can understand their rationale. However, there are some people's opinions that I just can't understand and do think they're being unreasonable and irrational.