Aluminium in vaccines

[bumbleymummy]

I thought this might do better with its own thread because the other one went off on a bit of a tangent.

On other threads it has been said that Aluminium is 'safe' in vaccines and that 'the dose makes the poison' .I'd just like to ask a few questions and maybe the people who have made those comments on the other threads will be able to answer them.

What is the 'dose that makes the poison' for Aluminium?

How much Aluminium is absorbed by the body from a vaccine?

We know that Aluminium is toxic and I found this from medscape 'if a significant load exceeds the body's excretory capacity, the excess is deposited in various tissues, including bone, brain, liver, heart, spleen, and muscle. This accumulation causes morbidity and mortality through various mechanisms.' So what is the excretory capacity for a child?

I've tried to find the answers to those questions myself.

Wrt what the toxic dose for Aluminium is I found this on the FDA website :

"Research indicates that patients with impaired kidney function, including premature neonates, who receive parenteral levels of aluminum at greater than 4 to 5 [micro]g/kg/day accumulate aluminum at levels associated with central nervous system and bone toxicity. Tissue loading may occur at even lower rates of administration."

I'm still looking for something that shows what the toxic dose for a healthy infant is. Does anyone else have a link?

Wrt how much Al is absorbed from vaccines. I've found this from medscape :

"In healthy subjects, only 0.3% of orally administered aluminum is absorbed via the GI tract and the kidneys effectively eliminate aluminum from the human body. It is only when the GI barrier is bypassed, such as intravenous infusion or in the presence of advanced renal dysfunction, that aluminum has the potential to accumulate. As an example, with intravenously infused aluminum, 40% is retained in adults and up to 75% is retained in neonates.[4]"

Obviously vaccines aren't given intravenously but they still bypass the GI tract so what percentage is retained? Anyone know?

I've also checked how much Al is in a dose of Pediacel (5 in 1) www.medicines.org.uk/emcmobile/medicine/15257/spc#PRODUCTINFOhere :

"Adsorbed on Aluminium Phosphate

1.5 mg (0.33 mg Aluminium)"

Does that mean there is 0.33mg (equivalent to 330 micrograms) in each dose?

If anyone has answers to these questions, please post them. I'm sure some of you must because you have posted that Aluminium is safe in vaccines. Links to any info are very much appreciated. TIA :)

PJ, what did you mean to ask then? Your question doesn't really make sense. I think you thought it meant 'amount absorbed' as you did earlier and you've only just looked it up and are now trying to back track. I could be wrong - although it doesn't really explain why you would phrase your question the way you did.

Which posts don't you think make sense based on the definition?

"The GACVS also reviewed the US FDA risk assessment model of aluminium in vaccines. The FDA calculations incorporate the most recently published aluminium risk assessments by adjusting for gastrointestinal absorption and uptake from the site of injection. The FDA analysis indicates that the body burden of aluminium following injections of aluminium-containing vaccines never exceeds safe US regulatory thresholds based on orally ingested aluminium even for low birth-weight infants. GACVS concludes that this comprehensive risk assessment further supports the clinical trial and epidemiological evidence of the safety of aluminium in vaccines. Current research on pharmacokinetics of aluminium in vaccines is ongoing and should be encouraged as a means of further validating and improving this model."

global advisery committee on vaccine safety

Also from the workshop

Causality has not been established for Dr. Gherardi?s
claim that MMF, the histologic entity, is associated with
a ?symptom complex? of fatigue and ascending myalgias.

The major criticism centered about the causation issues
and the lack of suitable controls. Dr. Gherardi concurred that
his causation thesis had yet to be proven

I notice you refuse to say what you think body burden means.

Do you mean that you agree with what I said?

Once we have established what you think it means we can look at your posts that don't make sense.

I also notice that when I posed my original question you didn't answer it.

Bruffin, from your quote:

"the body burden of aluminium following injections of aluminium-containing vaccines never exceeds safe US regulatory thresholds based on orally ingested aluminium"

Also, the link I posted this morning about MMF and CFS is more recent than the conference. It seems like further evidence is emerging.

I'm happy to answer your question PJ. I've already said that it doesn't make sense to me and I've given you the opportunity to rephrase it do that I actually know what you're asking. I know what body burden means - you seem to have only looked it up this morning which may be why you were confused and why your original question doesn't make sense.

It all says
by adjusting for gastrointestinal absorption and uptake from the site of injection.

I have no idea why you keep fixating on oral, other than you don't actually understand what your own problem is.
The experts know what the body burden is,they can work it, you obviously don't understand this and it is extremely arrogant to believe that you know more than they do.
They know how much aluminium is left in the body after orally ingestion
They know how much aluminium is left in the body after intramuscular injection.
They know the body burden for aluminium, they know that after the normal ingestion of aluminium through diet there is enough room for the vaccine schedule.
Aluminium toxity is caused by the build up by longterm exposure which builds up, not amounts that barely touch the total body burdern for less than a day.

BM
I'm happy to answer your question PJ

Then please do.

And also please say why you believe that using the following parameters

an updated list of recommended vaccines for infants

baseline aluminum levels at birth

more recent information on how the body accumulates aluminum

new information on how the infant kidney filters out potentially toxic substances from the blood

more accurate information on how quickly aluminum spreads away from the site of vaccine injections and into the body

the latest information on safety levels for aluminum in the body

the most recent information on infant weights from age 0 to 60 months"

the experts cannot work out what is a safe dose of aluminium in an adjuvant, especially when there is no recorded side affects other than a sore arm.

Bumble

Your posts demonstrate a marked lack of understanding of the basics of physiology and toxicology, not to mention the scientific method in general.

Let's keep this simple. We'll go through it step at a time.

First, both piglet and I have already asked this, and you haven't replied. Do you think an atom of Al injected into a muscle is potentially more toxic than an atom of Al absorbed through the gut wall?

"They know how much aluminium is left in the body after intramuscular injection."

Really? How do they know that when studies into Al administered intramuscularly haven't been done? Don't you ever wonder that?

Also, what do you mean 'they know the body burden for Al'? It varies from person to person.

PJ,

"It must be difficult dealing with research into the "amount of Al in the body " if you have to invent the idea that 'the amount of Al in the body' is in some way different depending on how it got into the body. Is there any evidence to support this idea?

I'm not sure what you are asking. It doesn't make sense so I can't give you any evidence until I know what you are asking.

BM I'm not sure what you are asking

"Please say what you think "body burden" means as some of your posts do not make sense."

The studies have been done it says so above
more accurate information on how quickly aluminum spreads away from the site of vaccine injections and into the body
How do you think they don't know this if they studies havent been done. As mentioned many times on this thread it is the Keith 2002 and updated in 2011.

Bumble

Do you think an atom of Al injected into a muscle is potentially more toxic than an atom of Al absorbed through the gut wall?

Bruffin, they take those parameters and then compare them to what they know to be the MRL for oral Al. We do not take vaccines orally (anymore - I know we used to use the OPV)? MRLs for Al injected intramuscularly are not available.

PJ, if you want an answer to your question then explain what you are asking.

Jo, I'm not sure what you mean by being 'more toxic'. An atom of Al is an atom of Al. It is how much that is absorbed via different routes that we are looking at.

I've noticed that none of you are commenting on the links I'm posting to the studies that express concerns about Al.

I did and told you that the MMF has been dismissed because there was no control.

And I also pointed out that the tomowski one was sponsored by antivaccine trusts.

Bruffin, they take those parameters and then compare them to what they know to be the MRL for oral Al. We do not take vaccines orally (anymore - I know we used to use the OPV)? MRLs for Al injected intramuscularly are not available.

You obviously know far more than Keith et all does, we must bow down to your superior knowledge.

sorry that was Lucija Tomljenovic not Tomowski

Oral MRL's are derived from Al absorption data and the accepted safe body burden for Al. For instance the body burden is x, 10% of ingested Al is absorbed, thus the MRL is 10x.

Injected Al starts in the muscle, i.e. 100% of it is initially added to the body burden.

Despite claiming not understand the expression 'more toxic', you accept 'an atom of Al is an atom of Al'. In which case, what's your beef with respect to ASTDR use of the body burden of Al resulting from consuming the oral MRL as a benchmark for body burden of Al through injection?

The one I posted this morning was a more recent study about MMF. Did you even read it?

Well Keith et al says that they compare it to the oral MRLs (they're the only ones that exist in the ATSDR study). Unless you've seen MRLs for intramuscularly injected Al elsewhere?

Jo, I'll quote from your link again:

""As these are injected directly into the body then they circumvent the body?s protective barriers and when they dissolve they can directly
enhance the body burden of aluminium."

Those 'protective barriers' include the GI tract.

I'm really not sure what you are doing with your calculations.

I think you should read that section of the ATSDR report to see how MRLs are calculated.