Aluminium in vaccines

[bumbleymummy]

I thought this might do better with its own thread because the other one went off on a bit of a tangent.

On other threads it has been said that Aluminium is 'safe' in vaccines and that 'the dose makes the poison' .I'd just like to ask a few questions and maybe the people who have made those comments on the other threads will be able to answer them.

What is the 'dose that makes the poison' for Aluminium?

How much Aluminium is absorbed by the body from a vaccine?

We know that Aluminium is toxic and I found this from medscape 'if a significant load exceeds the body's excretory capacity, the excess is deposited in various tissues, including bone, brain, liver, heart, spleen, and muscle. This accumulation causes morbidity and mortality through various mechanisms.' So what is the excretory capacity for a child?

I've tried to find the answers to those questions myself.

Wrt what the toxic dose for Aluminium is I found this on the FDA website :

"Research indicates that patients with impaired kidney function, including premature neonates, who receive parenteral levels of aluminum at greater than 4 to 5 [micro]g/kg/day accumulate aluminum at levels associated with central nervous system and bone toxicity. Tissue loading may occur at even lower rates of administration."

I'm still looking for something that shows what the toxic dose for a healthy infant is. Does anyone else have a link?

Wrt how much Al is absorbed from vaccines. I've found this from medscape :

"In healthy subjects, only 0.3% of orally administered aluminum is absorbed via the GI tract and the kidneys effectively eliminate aluminum from the human body. It is only when the GI barrier is bypassed, such as intravenous infusion or in the presence of advanced renal dysfunction, that aluminum has the potential to accumulate. As an example, with intravenously infused aluminum, 40% is retained in adults and up to 75% is retained in neonates.[4]"

Obviously vaccines aren't given intravenously but they still bypass the GI tract so what percentage is retained? Anyone know?

I've also checked how much Al is in a dose of Pediacel (5 in 1) www.medicines.org.uk/emcmobile/medicine/15257/spc#PRODUCTINFOhere :

"Adsorbed on Aluminium Phosphate

1.5 mg (0.33 mg Aluminium)"

Does that mean there is 0.33mg (equivalent to 330 micrograms) in each dose?

If anyone has answers to these questions, please post them. I'm sure some of you must because you have posted that Aluminium is safe in vaccines. Links to any info are very much appreciated. TIA :)

" there is study after study that show there is no more autism in vaccinated children than in unvaccinated "

For me bumbley I place my confidence in people who really understand the issue at hand. I don't. I'm not a toxicologist, I'm not a neurologist.

So I look here www.who.int/vaccine_safety/reports/Jun_2012/en/index.html

And it seems that people who are experts have looked at the evidence and found absolutely nothing to worry about.

I certainly don't think I know better!

I wonder what the "not safe?" thing is that we're looking for in Aluminium. It's not autism or Alzheimers, you say, so it must be something else.

Do you have some reason to think that it is not safe?

What is that reason?

Exactly Elaine.

I also think you're not considering the really large sample size of people who have had injected vaccines and have shown no signs of aluminum poisoning. (myself included. Unfortunately due to events beyond my control I have had more vaccines than recommended)

I find it odd that the numbers of people who have not suffered from Al issues and have received shots containing Al isn't at all compelling to you.

And sorry, I did bring up the Japan study and autism, didn't mean to derail!

I want to know how it has been shown to be safe. If people have been so convinced of its safety then you would think it would be very easy to answer the questions I asked. Apparently not.

That's because you are not thinking like a scientist. You will never get a scientist to say that any substance is absoloutly safe in all circumstances. The nearest you will get is that something has been demonstrated or not demonstrated.

Is tap water safe? Actually it can be toxic in large quantities. A scientist will not tell you (offically) that tap water is safe to drink, they will say that it only appears to be toxic in large quantities.

It's like the word 'theory', in general English it is an idea, but in science it is something for which there is evidence but no proof. So there is evidence of gravity, a lot of evidence, but no proof.

It doesn't say how much is eliminated and how much is retained Because that isn't what they were looking at, they were looking for a mechanism to eliminate (that means completely get rid of) the mechanism was shown to exist.

EB, I'd just like to read the rik assessments that they based them on because that is the information that seems to be so hard to find!

From your link:

"The FDA analysis indicates that the body burden of aluminium following injections of aluminium-containing vaccines never exceeds safe US regulatory thresholds based on orally ingested Aluminium even for low birth-weight infants."

So they're making recommendations for safety of intramuscular administration by looking at oral thresholds? Even though the intramuscular injection bypasses the GI tract? I'll just quote again from that Al toxicity article:

" It is only when the GI barrier is bypassed, such as intravenous infusion or in the presence of advanced renal dysfunction, that aluminum has the potential to accumulate. "

Seems a bit like comparing apples and oranges to me. I'd like to know how they extrapolated one from the other.

Sashh, I'm not asking a scientist to say that it is absolutely safe in all circumstances. Just that it is 'safe' in vaccines.(as 'safe' as these things can actually be)

Eliminate means 'to excrete' in physiology. Some al is retained (I've already provided links and quotes that show that). I would like to know how much is retained from intramuscular administration.

"Just that it is 'safe' in vaccines.(as 'safe' as these things can actually be)"

You have been shown links where scientist say just that!

You are right, sorry for any confusion. I should say that I am asking to see how it has been established to be safe. People can say whatever they want, I'd like to see what they're basing it on. I'm sure I'm not the only one!

Sashh, I'm not asking a scientist to say that it is absolutely safe in all circumstances. Just that it is 'safe' in vaccines.(as 'safe' as these things can actually be)

So what do you want the research paper should say? They cannot say it is safe for the reasons I gave before.

The language used in research papers consists of:

'indicates that.............'
'identified a mechanism to....'

Eliminate does not mean the same as excrete, the paper you (sorry if it was someone else) said that a mechanism for ellimination was demonstrated.

I admit they did not say how long it took for ellimination to actually take place. And if they had would it be relevant? Our bodies have many similarities to the NZ White Rabbits - which is why they are used to model human phisiology. But humans are much larger and if you are looking at a whole body experiment to time how long it takes for a substance to be eliminated is that of any real use?

I'm not sure if you are asking the right questions. is it safe? Yes that is a good question.

How much (if any) aluminium remains? Well does it really matter if it is not causing a problem?

Say it is safe to have 5g of aluminium in your muscles, then as long as the total from vaccines does not leave more than 5g would you agree that was safe?

Like I said, bumbley, I don't have a need to see the studies which they're basing their decisions on since I don't understand them, they do.

What I do know is that there is no evidence of exposure to aluminum in vaccines and an association with detrimental outcome x,y,z

That's really good enough for me. Especially considering why we vaccinate.

Sashh, as I said to bruffin, I would like them to be able to say how they have determined that Al in vaccines is safe (because that is what they are saying).

here is the definition of elimation for you. As you can see, in physiology, it means to excrete. So the link which said that Al is 'eliminated in the urine' simply means that it is excreted in the urine. It does not mean that it 'completely gets rid of' all Al in the body. In fact, if you look at the other studies that have been linked to you can see the evidence for Al being retained in various tissues.

This is a study that Jo posted on the other thread that shows that Al from vaccines is still retained in muscle tissue 12 months after vaccination. (that was the longest time frame that they looked at in that particular study)

Wrt your points about safety levels - that is what I am looking for. What dose of Al given intramuscularly is considered toxic? How much remains in the body after vaccination because we do know that it can cause problems if it exceeds the body's excretory capacity because it then accumulates in tissues throughout the body. 'This accumulation causes morbidity and mortality through various mechanisms.' (from the Al toxicity article that I linked to earlier)

If I could find a study (or studies) that could actually give that information and could show that Al given intramuscularly in vaccines is not absorbed in large amounts that exceed the body's excretory capacity and that it does not accumulate in tissues around the body then that would be great!

Elaine, ok, so you're happy for them to base their recommendations for safety of intramuscular administration on oral thresholds? I'm not. Apples and oranges.

But there is not large amounts of aluminium in the first place, it is far less than they get from breastmilk or formula.

"Isn?t it possible that aluminum in vaccines could be
harmful to some healthy babies?
Q. What is the harm in spacing out vaccines containing
aluminum?
References
A. Yes. The best way to answer this question is to look at people
who are harmed by aluminum. These people can be divided
into two groups: severely premature infants who receive large
quantities of aluminum in intravenous fluids, and people with
longstanding kidney failure who receive large quantities of
aluminum, primarily in antacids. (The average recommended
dose of antacids has about 1,000 times more aluminum than a
vaccine does.) Both of these groups of patients can suffer brain
dysfunction, bone abnormalities or anemia because of the very
high quantities of aluminum that have accumulated in their
bodies.
For aluminum to be harmful, two criteria must be met: people
must have kidneys that don?t work well or don?t work at all, and
they must receive very large quantities of aluminum for months
or years. In these situations, a lot of aluminum enters the body
and not enough leaves the body.
A. Delaying vaccines will only increase the time during which
children are liable to catch vaccine-preventable diseases. Certain
diseases, such as whooping cough and pneumococcus, still
occur commonly in the United States. Given that aluminum
is common in food and water, delaying vaccines will not
significantly lessen a child?s exposure to aluminum; it will only
increase the child?s chance of suffering a severe and potentially
fatal infection.
A. No. The quantity of aluminum in vaccines is tiny compared
with the quantity required to cause harm. Here?s another way
to think about this: All babies are either breast-fed or bottlefed.
Because both breast milk and infant formula contain
aluminum, all babies have small quantities of aluminum in
their bloodstreams all the time. The amount is very small:
about 5 nanograms (billionths of a gram) per milliliter of
blood (about one-fifth of a teaspoon). Indeed, the quantity of
aluminum in vaccines is so small that even after an injection
of vaccines, the amount of aluminum in a baby?s blood does
not detectably change. In contrast, the amount of aluminum
in the bloodstreams
of people who suffer
health problems from
aluminum is at least 100
times greater than the
amount found in the
bloodstreams of healthy
people."

330 mcg of Al in each dose of Pediacel. You do not drink vaccines.

FDA regulations limit the aluminum content
of an individual dose of a vaccine to 0.85 mg. of elemental
aluminum. This is equivalent to 15 mg. of alum per dose.

Yes, and?

more information

even more information

I do think that you are trying to question a problem that doesn't exist.

Again why do you think there is a problem with aluminum in vaccines,?

What side effects do you thing they cause?

The first link talks about the ATSDR study I linked to earlier. The ATSDR study gives the MRL for intermediate and chronic oral exposure. Vaccines are not given orally.

Your second link actually has lots of interesting information. It says this in reference to the ATSDR study (the one your previous study linked to):

"There seems to be abundant data
concerning risk levels for ingested aluminum, but scant data
about risk levels for injected aluminum. The oral minimum risk level, for example, appears to be in the range of
2?60 mg/kg of aluminum per day but there are no comparable data for injected aluminum"

Also in the 'things we don't know about Al section:

"The second panel discussed ?what we don?t know? about
aluminum-containing adjuvants and identified the following
areas to be more thoroughly studied.

1. Toxicology and pharmacokinetics of aluminum adjuvants. Specifically, the processing of aluminum by

infants and children.

1. Mechanisms by which aluminum adjuvants interact with

the immune system.

and

"Some identified areas
of research include: expanding the aluminum pharmacokinetic database, especially following IM injection in young
children, conducting bimetal (mercury and aluminum) toxicological studies in animals, identifying biomarkers of toxicity,"

It also says a good deal about MMF which I have come across a few times now and it was very interesting to read.

It would seem that the information that I am looking for isn't available because it hasn't been looked at yet. Maybe we will have to come back to this thread in a few years when the research has been done.

Bumbley I posted links on the other thread where authors had expressed concerns about the safety of al in vaccines (I think both were talking about autism, but I'd have to check) but, the response I got every time I mentioned their concerns was that research wasn't needed and what were my worries, anyway?
And I agree, telling me that x amount of al, if ingested, won't be a problem doesn't ease my mind when it comes to injected aluminium.

Maybe it hasnt really been looked at yet because there is a problem to look for!

Well, they were identified as areas for further research in that conference report you linked to do obviously someone thinks they are worth looking at.

yes but it appears to be just as a curiosity and not urgent.
All the links i have shown say that they feel that the aluminium used in vaccines is well within the safe parameters, that is all you really need to know!