Aluminium in vaccines

[bumbleymummy]

I thought this might do better with its own thread because the other one went off on a bit of a tangent.

On other threads it has been said that Aluminium is 'safe' in vaccines and that 'the dose makes the poison' .I'd just like to ask a few questions and maybe the people who have made those comments on the other threads will be able to answer them.

What is the 'dose that makes the poison' for Aluminium?

How much Aluminium is absorbed by the body from a vaccine?

We know that Aluminium is toxic and I found this from medscape 'if a significant load exceeds the body's excretory capacity, the excess is deposited in various tissues, including bone, brain, liver, heart, spleen, and muscle. This accumulation causes morbidity and mortality through various mechanisms.' So what is the excretory capacity for a child?

I've tried to find the answers to those questions myself.

Wrt what the toxic dose for Aluminium is I found this on the FDA website :

"Research indicates that patients with impaired kidney function, including premature neonates, who receive parenteral levels of aluminum at greater than 4 to 5 [micro]g/kg/day accumulate aluminum at levels associated with central nervous system and bone toxicity. Tissue loading may occur at even lower rates of administration."

I'm still looking for something that shows what the toxic dose for a healthy infant is. Does anyone else have a link?

Wrt how much Al is absorbed from vaccines. I've found this from medscape :

"In healthy subjects, only 0.3% of orally administered aluminum is absorbed via the GI tract and the kidneys effectively eliminate aluminum from the human body. It is only when the GI barrier is bypassed, such as intravenous infusion or in the presence of advanced renal dysfunction, that aluminum has the potential to accumulate. As an example, with intravenously infused aluminum, 40% is retained in adults and up to 75% is retained in neonates.[4]"

Obviously vaccines aren't given intravenously but they still bypass the GI tract so what percentage is retained? Anyone know?

I've also checked how much Al is in a dose of Pediacel (5 in 1) www.medicines.org.uk/emcmobile/medicine/15257/spc#PRODUCTINFOhere :

"Adsorbed on Aluminium Phosphate

1.5 mg (0.33 mg Aluminium)"

Does that mean there is 0.33mg (equivalent to 330 micrograms) in each dose?

If anyone has answers to these questions, please post them. I'm sure some of you must because you have posted that Aluminium is safe in vaccines. Links to any info are very much appreciated. TIA :)

She wasn't completely wrong - as I've pointed out (twice)

Nope, that's not answering the question (surprise,surprise)

I'm asking what difference to our discussion you think it makes to know the correct information. What difference does it make knowing that Al was below detectable levels in some muscle samples after 6 months (rather than 12+)?

I can see you want to spin this out with evasion and flannel.

Tabitha8 said
"The OP wasn't trying to prove it was dangerous, just that it's safe."

I replied "If you are right, then the OP has started a worthless thread."
and gave examples of proving things to be safe.

So are you going to say that Tabith was right and that you are trying to prove it's safe, or that she was wrong and you are not trying to prove it was safe?

Being evasive and saying "You really can't figure that out?" is just you being silly

PJ, this really isn't that difficult to figure out - go back and slowly read what I wrote. What she said was half right (as I've already pointed out)

Now if anyone is being evasive, it's you. You still haven't answered my question :
"I'm asking what difference to our discussion you think it makes to know the correct information. What difference does it make knowing that Al was below detectable levels in some muscle samples after 6 months (rather than 12+)?"

You avoided it yesterday but I thought I'd try again. I think it's pretty clear at this stage that you don't know but you just don't want to say so. Doesn't really make sense for you to be so outraged about it yesterday when you don't even know if it makes a difference or not but hey ho! :)

I have answered your question repeatedly but you lack the moral capacity to understand my reply. This is obvious because you think that saying things that aren't true doesn't matter.

Wed 05-Sep-12 00:25:50
Wed 05-Sep-12 09:32:49
Wed 05-Sep-12 12:17:59
Thu 06-Sep-12 16:12:06

PJ You enjoy being pedantic because it derails the thread. Please go back and read the OP. It's always at the top of my screen for reference.

bm, below is the first time you made the inaccurate statement.

You start saying that the vaxers have not explained how Al in vaccines is safe. Then you say Al is retained in muscle. Then you talk about people dying from accumulated Al. Any normal, well-adjusted person reading this is going to think you believe Al has not been shown to be safe, and the fact that Al is retained in muscle might lead to serious health consequences. Under this entirely normal interpretation, your position hinges on the long-term retention of Al in muscle.

You've since insisted that you don't have reason to think Al is a threat, and that the comment about muscle retention was just some inconsequential aside. If this is true, personally I don't believe it is, but if it is true, you need to give a lot more consideration to how you write. You appear not to understand that it is possible to say Al is dangerous with your tone, juxtaposition and style. Retrospectively arguing the toss that you weren't saying what your words very clearly said is a waste of everyone's time.

My view is that you deliberately use tone, juxtaposition and style to say that vaccinations are dangerous because that is what you believe. By expressing it this way, you think you are clever, because when someone challenges you, you can always claim you never said such and such. You generally did, you said it in a hundred different ways, but never in so many words.

The quote:
I would like them to be able to say how they have determined that Al in vaccines is safe (because that is what they are saying).

This is a study that Jo posted on the other thread that shows that Al from vaccines is still retained in muscle tissue 12 months after vaccination. (that was the longest time frame that they looked at in that particular study)

Wrt your points about safety levels - that is what I am looking for. What dose of Al given intramuscularly is considered toxic? How much remains in the body after vaccination because we do know that it can cause problems if it exceeds the body's excretory capacity because it then accumulates in tissues throughout the body. 'This accumulation causes morbidity and mortality through various mechanisms.'

As stated before it has been shown to be safe because millions are vaccinated and no-one gets AL poisioning.
As for mumps being mild, deafness occurs in c. 1 in 20,000 cases. The US, pre-vaccine, had around 300,000 cases a year, ie 15 deaf children every year in the US alone because you are being stupid.
BTW this is not a random insult just plainly obvious from your postings on this thread and your inability to see what is obvious to everyone else.

Youngermother To my knowledge, there is no al in the MMR.

I wonder what that is relevant to.

Tabitha8 - agreed, my comment was in reference to Bumble's quote I will, however, point them in the direction of the NHS and the HPA websites when they say things like 'mumps is a deadly disease' or that it causes sterility when it is actually mild (and often completely asymptomatic) in children and that there is no firm evidence that it causes sterility and that orchitis is not a complication in children.

meant to be in Italics

Youngermother I see. I did a lot of my intial reading about the various vaccine preventable diseases on the NHS website as it seems to offer a calm approach. Reading about mumps on there it still talks about serious complications being rare but it does give approx figures to demonstrate risk. I find the website a very useful resource still.

PJ My comment about al in MMR was just to show that concerns about al in vaccines isn't an issue with the MMR. So, relevant after all.

so if MMR is not relevant to this thread, the purpose of mentioning it, then saying that it is not relevant, is

To be fair to Tabitha8, Bumble started talking about mumps, I picked up this without quoting her and Tabitha8 was the one who mentioned it was not relevant - apologies for derailing, but i couldn't let the comment that mumps was harmless go - personal experience of complications

Sorry, Younger I wasn't trying to say that mumps/MMR wasn't relevant to be discussed on the thread as such. I just wanted to point out to anyone reading that might have concerns about al in vaccines, that they needn't worry about the MMR in that respect.

Jo, I think it is possible to read things in a different 'tone'. You are presuming that I am saying things in a certain tone and so are interpreting comments in a particular way. I don't think there is much I can do about that really.

Youngermummy, we actually started talking about it because you linked to an article about a girl who had been deafened by the MMRI vaccine. I mentioned that there had been concerns about that vaccine before it was introduced in the UK and it just went from there really.

I'm not sure what your comments about deafness have to do with what I said about it not being deadly or causing sterility. Also, why do you have a problem with me directing people to the HPA and NHS websites? Do you disagree with their information?

Anyway, as has been pointed out a couple of times now, there isn't Al in the MMR vaccine so it really isn't relevant to this particular discussion.

PJ, the fact that you think you've answered it just shows that you didn't understand the question. Never mind.

I'm not sure what your comments about deafness have to do with what I said about it not being deadly or causing sterility.

What you actually said was:
[mumps] is actually mild (and often completely asymptomatic) in children and that there is no firm evidence that it causes sterility and that orchitis is not a complication in children.

This suggests that the disease is not worth vaccinating against - this is what I commented on

From the NHS website:
www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Mumps/Pages/Complications.aspx
?pain and swelling of the testicles (orchitis) ? which affects 20% of all males who get mumps after puberty and
An estimated 7-13% of men will experience a drop in their sperm count (the amount of healthy sperm that their body can produce). However, this is rarely large enough to cause infertility.

bm, of course you can do something about it. You can write in a neutral manner. You can stop juxtaposing inaccurate comments about Al in muscle with comments about Al killing you. If you did so, I and everyone else, would stop leaping to what you claim are the wrong conclusions. Obviously, this would also prevent your comments from creating general unease and fear around vaccination.

General unease and confusion in whom? PJ said something similar to me but never said in whom I was causing it.

readers. who else?

youngermother, I actually added the word 'usually' to that statement in my post straight afterwards as well ( I didn't want to be dismissive of the few people in which it does cause complications.) I'm still not sure what part of my statement you are objecting to. What part of it do you disagree with?

Jo, as I already pointed out, the comments I made about some Al remaining in muscle tissue were to do with how much entered the bloodstream from the vaccine. It was relevant in the context of what we were discussing at the time. I'm not sure why you were struggling with it. I am usually responding to a few people at once so I may be talking about a few things at the same time. Sorry, if you find that confusing.

Tab, yes, I wonder about that too.

I find it hard to understand why this thread is continuing. You are feeding an OP who seems to behave in quite a deluded way. Leave her to her delusions and the rest of us can get on with living life resonsibly without having to get in to a life-ebbing debate.

Asking questions, how deluded and irresponsible of me. Don't feel like you have to contribute, Dystopian.