Aluminium in vaccines

[bumbleymummy]

I thought this might do better with its own thread because the other one went off on a bit of a tangent.

On other threads it has been said that Aluminium is 'safe' in vaccines and that 'the dose makes the poison' .I'd just like to ask a few questions and maybe the people who have made those comments on the other threads will be able to answer them.

What is the 'dose that makes the poison' for Aluminium?

How much Aluminium is absorbed by the body from a vaccine?

We know that Aluminium is toxic and I found this from medscape 'if a significant load exceeds the body's excretory capacity, the excess is deposited in various tissues, including bone, brain, liver, heart, spleen, and muscle. This accumulation causes morbidity and mortality through various mechanisms.' So what is the excretory capacity for a child?

I've tried to find the answers to those questions myself.

Wrt what the toxic dose for Aluminium is I found this on the FDA website :

"Research indicates that patients with impaired kidney function, including premature neonates, who receive parenteral levels of aluminum at greater than 4 to 5 [micro]g/kg/day accumulate aluminum at levels associated with central nervous system and bone toxicity. Tissue loading may occur at even lower rates of administration."

I'm still looking for something that shows what the toxic dose for a healthy infant is. Does anyone else have a link?

Wrt how much Al is absorbed from vaccines. I've found this from medscape :

"In healthy subjects, only 0.3% of orally administered aluminum is absorbed via the GI tract and the kidneys effectively eliminate aluminum from the human body. It is only when the GI barrier is bypassed, such as intravenous infusion or in the presence of advanced renal dysfunction, that aluminum has the potential to accumulate. As an example, with intravenously infused aluminum, 40% is retained in adults and up to 75% is retained in neonates.[4]"

Obviously vaccines aren't given intravenously but they still bypass the GI tract so what percentage is retained? Anyone know?

I've also checked how much Al is in a dose of Pediacel (5 in 1) www.medicines.org.uk/emcmobile/medicine/15257/spc#PRODUCTINFOhere :

"Adsorbed on Aluminium Phosphate

1.5 mg (0.33 mg Aluminium)"

Does that mean there is 0.33mg (equivalent to 330 micrograms) in each dose?

If anyone has answers to these questions, please post them. I'm sure some of you must because you have posted that Aluminium is safe in vaccines. Links to any info are very much appreciated. TIA :)

PJ, sorry but your analogy just doesn't work. Give it up. Start linking to articles that show that turnips are toxic enough for the ASTDR to start calculating MRLs and I'll maybe pay attention to you again...

Youngermother, have you read through the thread from the start? We don't know how much Al is retained from vaccines in infants. There has only been one, single person study using an adult male. We do know that 'safe' levels have been determined for oral Al and there are limits for how much Al is in IV fluids because Al is retained in the body and it can accumulate.

There are a lot more vaccines in our schedule now than there used to be too so I'm not ure you can really compare it to 40 years ago.

I'm not sure why you consider mass vaccination to be a valid scientific study. I don't see anyone trying to collect results!

bumble

in what way is my concern about turnips invalid?

you have a concern that you want to see proof that vaccines are safe. I have a concern that I want to see proof that turnips are safe.

You have no evidence to suggest that vaccines are not safe. I have no evidence to suggest that turnips are not safe.

You are not claiming that vaccines cause autism. I am not claiming that turnips cause lung cancer.

You are aware that vaccines have been used in vast numbers of the population for long periods, but this does not prove them to be safe. I am aware that turnips have been consumed by vast numbers of the population for long periods, but this does not prove them to be safe.

I've explained it to you already PJ. Its not my fault if you don't understand. Still waiting for those MRLs

P.s This thread has nothing to do with autism. HTH :)

You haven't explained anything.

My concerns are 100% equal in validity to yours.

This thread has nothing to do with lung cancer. As I said, I am not asserting that turnips cause lung cancer (although I agree it is true that there is no good evidence proving that they don't, so you never know, do you?)

You seem to be gloating that there is an absence of research into the effects of turnips. Surely you are not going to suggest that lack of research justifies ignoring my concerns?

People are collecting results because there are enough studies comparing vaccinating people to non-vaccinated people that any differences would have been identified.

You state that vaccine levels are higher now than previously, but this shows the introduction of vaccine programs (page 37) and this here shows the vaccines which have aluminium. This shows most have been around for a while.

To take piglet's example, the fact people have been eating turnips at certain levels for a long period of time and a number of people don't eat turnips and scientists do nutritional studies, that a link between turnips and lung cancer would have been identified.

That's right youngermother. Millions of children have been vaccinated and I've never heard of a child displaying aluminum toxicity following a vaccine. We know what aluminum toxicity looks like so wouldn't be difficult to spot.

If some does accumulate, it's very small compared to how much accumulates from other sources so I'm not worried about long term effects. Bumbley hasn't even articulated the long term effects she's concerned about, she's just concerned because its a vaccine.

My gut instinct says that although we vaccinate more than 40 years ago (though often with less antigens per virus) the vaccines are more often combined and have lower levels or no aluminium. Is this true? If this is so, I would expect to be seeing lots of cases of Al poisioning of vaccinated people in their 40s given their Al exposure was higher (if bm is right).

Plus, I don't understand bm's problem. Either it's short term Al toxicity which is a worry, in which case lots of the Al is flooding into the bloodstream and causing acute poisioning. Or the effects are long term, in which case the Al stays and accumulates in the muscle. Which of these effects are you worried about bm? It has to be one or the other.

I guess it's not surprisng bumble doesn't want to do anything to help improve vaccine safety. She's decided to piggy-back on herd immunity come what may.

Plus, I don't understand bm's problem

I didn't think bm actually has a problem? surely she is not asserting any particular problem, such as death, disease or disability, just saying that she want to see evidence of safety that will satisfy her? Isn't that right?

I don't think she wants to see evidence which satisfies her, because that would mean having to admit she was wrong.

She wants to rationalise her rejection of vaccinations, which is based partly on irrational fears, and partly on cynical exploitation of herd immunity. She does this by asking people to find safety research for her, which she then denigrates.

As someone who was probably over vaccinated for the last 40 years (we moved a lot and DM is shit with keeping records, and I live in the US AND worked in the medical field) I think Jo is right, bumbley just wants to case aspersions on vaccines.
I also live in an area with rampant (I think) whooping cough due to the number of unvaccinated kids and adults here. It's pretty tragic because we seem to be losing herd immunity and while some people always do survive an epidemic, many do not.

i think its bumbley's choice to vaccinate or not,especially if her kids have medical issues, but she's totally unrealistic when it comes to the results of what a lack of vaccines looks like.

I also live where there's plague, haunta virus, radon poisoning, nuclear waste, (probably) and huge amounts of natural arsenic. Yay!

plague?

do you mean in burial grounds? (we get that in London)

You do know that aluminium crosses the placenta easily - and that a new born baby probably contains the highest concentration of aluminium within its body except if that individual develops renal failure as it grows up?

where on earth do you live monsterchild?!

Sorry, was out and about;
we have buobonic plague, the Black Death itself! Usually a couple of cases every year, cured with antibiotics, no worries.

I live in New Mexico. Not new, not Mexico. Site if the first atomic bomb, Los Alamos and volcanoes (hence the aresenic) But the weather is lovely...

Just bookmarking again.
Yes, Bumbley I am finding the thread both interesting and informative.

Here you go PJ

"No PJ, I said there was a lack of any evidence that turnips are toxic. There is plenty of evidence that Al is toxic and that is why certain restrictions have been placed on IV fluids and oral intake. There have not been enough studies done to determine restrictions for Al in vaccines.

If there was evidence that eating a certain number of turnips every day was toxic then you would start looking for what 'safe' levels are, just as people do for Al. HTH "

Pay particular attention to there is lack of any evidence that turnips are toxic. There is plenty of evidence that Al is toxic to emphasise the difference between the comparison. I hope that's easy enough for you to understand but I'm sure you'll just ignore it and repeat yourself again.

Youngermother

"there are enough studies comparing vaccinating people to non-vaccinated people that any differences would have been identified. "

Where are these studies? I'm not sure I've seen any that compare an increase in symptoms of Al toxicity in a vaxed v unvaxed group.

Not sure what you mean by 'for a while'. The Pediacel vaccine was introduced in the UK in 2004. When I was younger we had the DTP and polio vaccines as a baby. Now we have the 5 in 1 alongside Hib and MenC - more than we had as children.

EB, I posted the sympoms of Al toxicity earlier. They are fairly non-specific and it probably wouldn't be the first thing that would spring to mind so I'm not so sure it is 'easy to spot' (particularly if you aren't looking for it). I posted a link to a French MMF and CFS case study. It took 3 years for them to identify that he had a high body burden of Al.

How do you know that the amount accumulating from vaccines is small compared to other sources? We've just discussed that there are no studies looking at that. All we know is that the amount in a single dose of a vaccine exceeds the limits for IV fluids and the equivalent amount based on the MRLs for oral ingestion.

LeBFG, (see comment to youngermummy re different vaccine schedule) I'm not sure why you have to be worried about one or the other tbh. Why? Why can't you just be concerned that no one seems to be able to tell you why they think a vaccine is safe aside from assuming that it must be despite the levels in Al exceeds safe levels for IV fluids and the amount absorbed from oral administration?

Jo, I guess I'll have to assume you won't be contacting the ATSDR then. I'd still like to know why you think they were unable to determine the MRL for Al. Do you think they overlooked the study you linked to? Also, I don't rely on herd immunity for the simple fact that it's unreliable. I'm not sure what the problem is in pointing out the fact that your safety info was based on a single person study. Do you still count that as reliable? Maybe you do.

monster

"I also live in an area with rampant (I think) whooping cough due to the number of unvaccinated kids and adults here."

The increase in whooping cough is to do with the fact that immunity from the vaccine wanes much more quickly than originally thought. (some US studies showed it started waning as soon as 12 months after administration) You can look it up. There is an increase in it in the Uk at the moment too despite the high level of vaccination coverage. There are now discussions about vaccinating newborns against it.

Tabitha, I'm glad :)

Hello, Bumbley

Tell me, what's the difference between "there is a lack of evidence that (Turnips/Aluminium in vaccines) is toxic" and "There have not been enough studies done to determine restrictions for (Turnips/Aluminium in vaccines)"

There is a lack of evidence that turnip is toxic full stop PJ. There is plenty of evidence that Al is toxic. See the difference?

come now, bumbley, you know better than that.

It's the dose that makes ther poison. A surfeit of anything will damage you. People die every year from dyhydrogen monoxide, especially if inhaled. There's nothing that won't kill you if you take too much of it.

and you will of course admit that

"there is a lack of evidence that Aluminium in vaccines is toxic"

Yes, one of the questions I asked at the start PJ was what that dose was for Al. We know what it is for oral administration and for IV fluids but not vaccines.

I'll just draw your attention to what I said earlier (again)

"If there was evidence that eating a certain number of turnips every day was toxic then you would start looking for what 'safe' levels are, just as people do for Al. HTH ""

PS I think you mean dihydrogen monoxide and, in your example, it's the inhaling of it that kills you, not that there is a surfeit of it.

there is, unfortunately, a lack of research showing what the toxic amount of turnip eaten per day is. There is a lack of research showing what the toxic amount of aluminium in vaccines is.

The two lacks are exactly equivalent.

Are you for some reason assuming that a lack of research into one suggests it is dangerous, and a lack of research into the other suggests it is safe?

Surely not.

So predictable PJ.

"I said there was a lack of any evidence that turnips are toxic. There is plenty of evidence that Al is toxic and that is why certain restrictions have been placed on IV fluids and oral intake.
If there was evidence that eating a certain number of turnips every day was toxic then you would start looking for what 'safe' levels are, just as people do for Al. HTH "