Aluminium in vaccines

[bumbleymummy]

I thought this might do better with its own thread because the other one went off on a bit of a tangent.

On other threads it has been said that Aluminium is 'safe' in vaccines and that 'the dose makes the poison' .I'd just like to ask a few questions and maybe the people who have made those comments on the other threads will be able to answer them.

What is the 'dose that makes the poison' for Aluminium?

How much Aluminium is absorbed by the body from a vaccine?

We know that Aluminium is toxic and I found this from medscape 'if a significant load exceeds the body's excretory capacity, the excess is deposited in various tissues, including bone, brain, liver, heart, spleen, and muscle. This accumulation causes morbidity and mortality through various mechanisms.' So what is the excretory capacity for a child?

I've tried to find the answers to those questions myself.

Wrt what the toxic dose for Aluminium is I found this on the FDA website :

"Research indicates that patients with impaired kidney function, including premature neonates, who receive parenteral levels of aluminum at greater than 4 to 5 [micro]g/kg/day accumulate aluminum at levels associated with central nervous system and bone toxicity. Tissue loading may occur at even lower rates of administration."

I'm still looking for something that shows what the toxic dose for a healthy infant is. Does anyone else have a link?

Wrt how much Al is absorbed from vaccines. I've found this from medscape :

"In healthy subjects, only 0.3% of orally administered aluminum is absorbed via the GI tract and the kidneys effectively eliminate aluminum from the human body. It is only when the GI barrier is bypassed, such as intravenous infusion or in the presence of advanced renal dysfunction, that aluminum has the potential to accumulate. As an example, with intravenously infused aluminum, 40% is retained in adults and up to 75% is retained in neonates.[4]"

Obviously vaccines aren't given intravenously but they still bypass the GI tract so what percentage is retained? Anyone know?

I've also checked how much Al is in a dose of Pediacel (5 in 1) www.medicines.org.uk/emcmobile/medicine/15257/spc#PRODUCTINFOhere :

"Adsorbed on Aluminium Phosphate

1.5 mg (0.33 mg Aluminium)"

Does that mean there is 0.33mg (equivalent to 330 micrograms) in each dose?

If anyone has answers to these questions, please post them. I'm sure some of you must because you have posted that Aluminium is safe in vaccines. Links to any info are very much appreciated. TIA :)

It must not exceed 25 mcg/L iirc. They try to keep it as low as possible for dialysis patients (not exceeding 10mcg/L)

There is 330 mcg of Al in a single Pediacel vaccine.

Goodness, I learn new terms everyday on here.
Sorry, just bookmarking my place really so I can keep up a bit.

I've no idea if a sensitivity analysis has been done. If you contact the ATSDR, they'll tell you if they've done one, but I doubt very much they'll've done it right.

The advantage of you doing one yourself, bumble, is that it'll be done the way you want it to be done.

But how many litres a day? And for how long?

And surely if it's going straight into the bloodstream through an IV, much more is absorbed than an intra-muscular injection?

Is it safe?

[Actually, probably not since premature babies and those with poor kidney function DO show aluminium poisoning if on IV for extended periods (unlike vax of course)]

So what's the safe limit for IV fluids?

What does it have to do with the ATSDR Jo?

Elaine, I think it's 1-2 litres per day for an adult. Some seems to be left in the muscle tissue (monkey study and MMF links) Bruffin's link earlier said 100% from a vaccine goes into the blood stream and other articles have said similar. They seem happy enough to use IV figures in their calculations.

I saw about 3l per day for maintenance in IV. So that's (if your numbers are correct) 75 mcg every day, straight into the bloodstream, for as long as you are on IV fluids. That'll add up pretty quick.

And soy based formula contains up to 900 mcg per liter. Yes, I know it's not being injected but if a baby's having a liter a day and absorbing into the bloodstream, say, 1% then that's 9 mcg per day (absorbed), 63 a week, 270 a month and 3285 over a year!

So this 330 in pediacel (I actually saw 150) is far less than a baby will absorb if drinking soy formula and far less than they'll get from a few days on an IV.

If they don't have a kidney problem, there's no reason to worry about the aluminium in vaccines. You're worrying over nothing.

0.33mg of Al in Pediacel here

This says 2l/day. Where did you see 3?

If you want to assume that putting over 13 times (assuming 1l for an infant which may still be too much!) the daily limit of Al for IV use into an infant's bloodstream and over 36 times the amount they would receive from formula (based on your 1l of formula per day which I actually think is an over estimate for a 2 month old) is 'safe' then that's up to you. Personally, I would rather know that something is 'safe' rather than just assuming that it is.

As I said earlier, they try to limit Al content in IV fluids for long term dialysis patients to under 10mcg/l because of the very real risk of Aluminium toxicity.

Dialysis patients are on dialysis because their kidneys aren't functioning. So they do have a very real risk of aluminium toxicity on IV fluids.

Healthy people on IV fluids will be exposed to much higher levels over longer periods of time.

If you had a child with a kidney problem I could understand concern about aluminium in vaccinations.

Other than that, I really don't see what the problem is. I've never heard of a child displaying signs of aluminium toxicity after a vaccination, have you?

Why would a healthy person be on IV fluids?

My point in mentioning the dialysis figures is to show that the Al content is even less for them. The 25mcg/L is the level for general use.

We know that Al is deposited in the tissues in the body even in healthy people. We know that the amount of Al given in a vaccine on a single day greatly exceeds the limits given for IV fluids and the amount that would enter the blood stream from oral intake. We don't know how much is retained in the body of an infant.

The Al toxicity article earlier mentioned the body's excretory capacity being exceeded and the excess being deposited in tissues around the body. Al filtering into the blood gradually and/or over a long period of time is not the same as a high dose being injected straight into the bloodstream. How do you really know that is safe?

My first sentence will probably be read with the wrong tone. I know that by 'healthy' you actually meant people with normal kidney function.

How are you getting on with the sensitivity analysis, bumble? Or is doing something constructive not 'interesting'.

Perhaps you'd rather pass your time in a meandering argument as to whether we are all but certain the risk of Al in vaccines is tiny or whether some unquantified doubts still linger.

You aren't really in a position to say whether the risk is tiny or not Jo.

I thought we had established that nobody is alleging that there is a problem, because nobody has found good evidence of one, isn't that right?

So we are in a Russell's Teapot discussion.

You appear reluctant to quantify your concerns, bumble. Is it just laziness?

My 'concern' is that none of you seem to be able to show how Al in vaccines has been determined to be 'safe'.

And yet, no-one is suggesting there is good evidence that it is unsafe

If anybody would like to put forward such evidence, it could be discussed.

Bumbley will be offended if I compare this to the unsubstantiated suspicion that eating turnips might cause lung cancer, which I am not at all suggesting is the case, although there is no proof that turnips don't cause lung cancer, so I am entitled to be concerned.

But Bumbley, I've asked you earlier how many vaccinated children show up with AL toxicity? There have literally been thousands of children vaccinated, there should be data regarding incidences of AL toxicity in those children. I suspect that if there were any sort of correllation someone would be funding that study. You could fund it, you know.

Also, I don't think anyone here is involved in research looking at AL toxcicty in infants at the moment.

And Piglet, turnips are very suspicious to me.

Monster, I posted the symptoms of Al toxicity earlier if you want to have a look at them.Studies into reactions don't look much beyond a localised reaction for a short period of time. How do you know that your children aren't accumulating Al that may cause problems in the future or may be starting to cause problems now?

Piglet, do you inject turnip juice into your child?

Your main concern seems to be insisting somebody else does all the graft, and then spoon feeds it to you in easy to digest morsels. You then say you don't like the taste of some of them, and can some sucker go and look for something different.

How can you claim to be so interested in vaccination, yet so unwilling to do anything to prioritise, clarify or remedy the concerns you have?

Thnaks for your interest.

No, but remembering of course that toxicity is caused by dose and body burden, and that the quantity of turnip consumed by mouth per year and absorbed into the body is thousands of times more than the amount that I would consider injecting, I don't consider that to be a relevant question.

My concerns relate mainly to the potential toxicity or other ill-effects of turnip entering the body, and I am not aware of any reliable research proving conclusively that the consumpton of turnip by mouth is safe, so obviously my concerns are no less valid than yours.

Ha! You have no idea how many studies I have read over the last few weeks in an attempt to see what you have based all your 'it's safe' on. It's hardly been 'spoonfed' to me. If anything, trying to get the information from you was like getting blood from a stone. Although I can now see why - it turns out that all your 'evidence' boils down to a single person study on an adult. Even then, you can't even admit that your 'evidence' may not be as reliable as you thought.

I already told you that my 'concern' is that you can't show how Al has been shown to be 'safe'. Yet for some strange reason you still seem to think you are in a position to criticise anyone who questions its safety studies (or lack thereof).

PJ, are there any studies that show that turnips are toxic? There are plenty that show that Al is. That's just one flaw in your silly comparison. What studies do you have that show how much turnip extract ends up
In the bloodstream? How much would you actually consider injecting anyway.

What is the body burden of turnip anyway?

I don't see how spending a long time on google and reading papers does anything to prioritise, clarify or remedy your concerns. It's just a selfish exercise in misinforming yourself on the back of other peoples' work. Why don't you give something back, instead of standing on the sidelines criticising?

Which concern are you talking about Jo? How exactly should I clarify or remedy my concerns about your inability to show why you think Al is 'safe' by googling?

Are you still convinced that it is 'safe'? Based on what evidence?