Aluminium in vaccines

[bumbleymummy]

I thought this might do better with its own thread because the other one went off on a bit of a tangent.

On other threads it has been said that Aluminium is 'safe' in vaccines and that 'the dose makes the poison' .I'd just like to ask a few questions and maybe the people who have made those comments on the other threads will be able to answer them.

What is the 'dose that makes the poison' for Aluminium?

How much Aluminium is absorbed by the body from a vaccine?

We know that Aluminium is toxic and I found this from medscape 'if a significant load exceeds the body's excretory capacity, the excess is deposited in various tissues, including bone, brain, liver, heart, spleen, and muscle. This accumulation causes morbidity and mortality through various mechanisms.' So what is the excretory capacity for a child?

I've tried to find the answers to those questions myself.

Wrt what the toxic dose for Aluminium is I found this on the FDA website :

"Research indicates that patients with impaired kidney function, including premature neonates, who receive parenteral levels of aluminum at greater than 4 to 5 [micro]g/kg/day accumulate aluminum at levels associated with central nervous system and bone toxicity. Tissue loading may occur at even lower rates of administration."

I'm still looking for something that shows what the toxic dose for a healthy infant is. Does anyone else have a link?

Wrt how much Al is absorbed from vaccines. I've found this from medscape :

"In healthy subjects, only 0.3% of orally administered aluminum is absorbed via the GI tract and the kidneys effectively eliminate aluminum from the human body. It is only when the GI barrier is bypassed, such as intravenous infusion or in the presence of advanced renal dysfunction, that aluminum has the potential to accumulate. As an example, with intravenously infused aluminum, 40% is retained in adults and up to 75% is retained in neonates.[4]"

Obviously vaccines aren't given intravenously but they still bypass the GI tract so what percentage is retained? Anyone know?

I've also checked how much Al is in a dose of Pediacel (5 in 1) www.medicines.org.uk/emcmobile/medicine/15257/spc#PRODUCTINFOhere :

"Adsorbed on Aluminium Phosphate

1.5 mg (0.33 mg Aluminium)"

Does that mean there is 0.33mg (equivalent to 330 micrograms) in each dose?

If anyone has answers to these questions, please post them. I'm sure some of you must because you have posted that Aluminium is safe in vaccines. Links to any info are very much appreciated. TIA :)

Making more assumptions Jo?

Do you have links to the studies measuring the increase in body burden of Al after vaccination? One of the questions I asked at the start was how much Al was absorbed from vaccines. I haven't seen a study that gave that information yet so if you have that it would be great.

I look forward to seeing the figures. TIA

Still avoiding the question, Bu?

I see you are using the term "body burden" but won't say what you think it means.

PJ, I know what it means and I'm glad you do too now. Maybe you should have looked it up before you posted your first question this morning though.

Still waiting for you to clarify what you meant in your first question so I can answer it and point you in the direction of any evidence if I can. (It's pretty clear that you weren't asking 'what do I understand 'body burden to mean' when you were asking 'Is there any evidence to support this idea' )

So that's the eighth time you've refused to answer the question "what do you understand "body burden" to mean."

Can I just say that this is an incredibly entertaining thread?

monsterchild.

That's 8 times that I've asked you about your original question PJ and I still don't know what it was. :)

Entertaining as this is, I am actually keen to move this forward so I will say that 'body burden of Al' means the amount of Al in the body. Now, would you like to clarify what your first question was? What would you like evidence of?

Bumble - 'Do you have links to the studies measuring the increase in body burden of Al after vaccination?'

I think we're nearly there. So I can savour in full, could you say:

Is the reason that you have repeatedly said 'but they compare with the oral MRL' because you thought they were making a simple naive and direct comparison between oral and injected doses?

If your answer is 'no', what possible other reason is there for your having repeatedly said 'but they compare with the oral MRL'.

I don't know why you need piglet to explain the question. It's pretty simple. Do you have any evidence that oral Al is different to injected Al, once it is in the body? I asked you more or less the same thing up thread, and you didn't answer on the grounds that you didn't know what 'more toxic' means.

Good morning Jo. Some of the studies that have been linked to have done direct comparisons ie. this is the amount of Al in vaccines and it is less than the MRL figure - nothing about measuring differences in body burden. In fact, one of the studies that bruffin linked to earlier compared the amount of Al in vaccines to the amount in breastmilk and formula which bruffin seemed to find completely reassuring. So we can dismiss those as simple and naive can we?

I haven't seen a study yet that measures what the increased body burden is from vaccination. If this has been done then it may actually answer one of my initial questions so if you'd like to link to it then I'd be very interested in reading it. Why havent you linked to it already? It may have saved us a lot of time. Or are you just assuming that is what has been done without actually seeing any evidence for it?

Re pj's question, where did you get the 'in the body' from out of that? I asked earlier if she was asking about different absorption rates and she said she wasn't . I've already said that an atom of Al is an atom of Al in reply to your question yesterday so that seems to cover your interpretation of her question (not sure why she didn't pick up on that herself.) It is amount absorbed from different methods of administration that I have been asking about so I'm very interested in reading this study that measures the increased body burden after vaccination :)

The majority of your comments on oral MRL comparisons relate to the ATSDR report. You know the one you said I haven't read/don't understand. In the context of this report, did you or did you not think they were making a simple naive and direct comparison between oral and injected doses?

Perhaps you could repost the link to Bruffin' study which does a naive comparison.

Jo, the ATSDR report didn't compare oral administered Al and vaccines. It didn't mention any human studies measuring increased body burden after vaccination either.

Do you have that link?

Here's bruffin's

"During the first 6 months of life, infants could receive about 4 milligrams of aluminum from vaccines. That?s not very much: a milligram is one-thousandth of a gram and a gram is the weight of one-fifth of a teaspoon of water. During the same period, babies will also receive about 10 milligrams of aluminum in breast milk, about 40 milligrams in infant formula, or about 120 milligrams in soy-based formula."

and putting that in context of the rest of the link and reading the fda report you will see that its very clear they know what the body burden of aluminium is and how it is dispersed in the body after an intramuscular injection.
You obviously didnt read this part of the link
About 50 percent of aluminum in vaccines or in food is eliminated in less than
24 hours; 85 percent is eliminated in two weeks and 96 percent
is eliminated in three years. The ability of the body to rapidly
eliminate aluminum accounts for its excellent record of safety.
I had read all that already

And have avoided the whole point again,

What do you think the side effects of aluminium used as an adjuvent are?

I did read it bruffin. It was the 'naive' direct comparison of Al in vaccines and breastmilk/formula that I was pointing out for Jo.

Oh look, something else which shows the difference between vaccines and oral administration:

"Though all of the aluminum present in vaccines enters the bloodstream, less than 1 percent of aluminum present in food is absorbed through the intestines into the blood"

Although we know it isn't 'all' because we've seen the studies showing that some of the Al remains in the muscle tissue. (monkey study).

That wasn't the whole point actually. We're looking for these studies that have measured the increase in body burden after vaccination. Jo seems to have one. Just waiting for it now- it's nice that we're all searching for the same information.

But it is not a naive direct comparison, you assumed they didn't know what they were talking about and you knew better!

Aluminum from food enters all parts of the body as well, which is why you get bone disease from too much exposure.

It is the whole point, there is no other point. If you have too much aluminum it causes a side affect. ie in the bones and brains . This caused by long term exposure and is very rare. Where is this epidemic of bone disease etc

It's Jo who first called it naive bruffin.

I'm not assuming anything. They've made a direct comparison between the amount of Al in vaccines and the amount in breastmilk/formula. This seems to reassure you because you have previously said, 'but it's less than in formula/breastmilk' so you made a direct comparison too. I guess that makes you naive as well.

That case study I posted earlier about MMF shows how hard it was and how long it took to identify that he had an increased body burden of Al.

and again it was a very rare case.

Its not my problem you are unable to understand simple literature.

Symptoms of Al toxicity:

disturbed sleep, nervousness, emotional instability, memory loss, headaches, and impaired intellect.

It can stop the body's ability to digest and make use of calcium, phosphorus and fluoride. This prevents bone growth and reduces bone density. Aluminum can also cause conditions which actually force calcium out of the bones. Either of these situations can bring on weakness and deformation in the bone structure with crippling effects.

Toxicity can also result in aching muscles, speech problems, anemia, digestive problems, lowered liver function, colic and impaired kidney function.

Ditto bruffin

"Where is this epidemic of bone disease etc?"

Strangely enough Aluminium toxicity can cause rickets.

Hasn't there been a lot of interest recently in the increasing number of cases of rickets in children?

I wonder of any of them have been tested for Al toxicity or if they're all put down to Vitamin D deficiency.

Piglet, Jo, elaine, monster and ssch all understand and you don't!

And again where is the epidemic of bone disease! Those symptoms are caused by long term ingestion. When they talk about tolerable load they talk in weekly basis not even a daily basis.

What you fail to have taken into account in the whole sorry saga,is that we are talking about known values. We know the total amount of aluminium that is taken in through vaccines. it is not going to magically increase over the years,

The MRLs from the ASTDR report were given in mg/kg/day.

Can you give me that 'known value' for how much Al is absorbed by the body from the vaccine? Jo seems to be looking for the same thing too. We can all look together.

See above post wrt bone disease and take note of the disclaimer. :)

google it!

Jo isnt looking for it, she explained it all above, she just wants you to try and understand.
look I have a life and this is getting extremely boring.
I have my dds sore mouth from her new brace
Sort out an emergency pair of glasses for ds who has lost 3 pairs if i can get him out of bed
sort out dhs birthday tomorrow
and we are going on holiday on Friday
I have a huge amount to do in a short time, just to know that i am not giving up , i just have a life to get on with.