Reactions to MMR - how long do they last?

[MrsMoppetMama]

My DD (13 months) had her MMR 11 days ago, she had a bad reaction after about 3 days (high temp and trouble breathing) and we took her to urgent care center. Although this has now passed, she seems to be really out of sorts and has stopped sleeping through. Her normal routine was brilliant as she went down from about 7 - 7. Now she is waking every two hours and is very unhappy. Is this normal? is this because of her MMR or is it just a phase? She has also stopped taking her bottle before bed, is it likely that she has weaned herself? Help! It's been pretty easy going with her up to now so a bit stressed by all this.

Bumbley
It looks like CDC went for the higher level of the case fatality range. Other reports put it between 1 in 1000 to 1 in 10000.

But do you know the crazy thing? It doesn't matter! Even if you accept a case fatality of 1 in 10000, the vaccine is still safer by quie a few orders of magnitude. I can kind of understand people holding off on hep b, varicella, hpv but not measles. too serious and too common.

Saintly have you any advice that might help this mum?

"My thoughts are that the gov't/health organisations are actually not worried about measles"

That would be why Blair wouldn't say if his son had the MMR

It's time to grow up now. Governments have entirely different risk/benefit calculations than those of individuals:

Parents will vaccinate depending on what is best for their child: vaccinate if the disease is scary enough, don't vaccinate at all if their child might be vulnerable to vaccine damage.

Governments will promote vaccination depending on what is best for the nation: economic cost of parents staying home to look after sick children, cost to NHS of epidemics and their possible complications, etc. A few children damaged for life is collateral damage.

Wrong again Elaine.

"the vaccine is still safer by quie a few orders of magnitude"

You don't know if this is true because you don't know how safe the vaccine is. As you'd know if you took any notice of anything anybody on this thread has written.

"Even if you accept a case fatality of 1 in 10000, the vaccine is still safer by quite a few orders of magnitude."

The vaccine is only "safer" if you don't read/understand/believe any of the evidence to the contrary.
Even if the case fatality were 1 in 1000 I would still rather have the disease than the vaccine.

x-post

Elaine

Read bad science or autisms false prophets if you want to know a bit about the origins of the mmr paranoia.

But of course, you have ducked my question. Why don't people worry about a tetanus injection? Why is that acceptable to everyone, (apart from those who don't vaccinate at all - which isn't the majority of us here).

What makes you assume that I haven't read 'Bad Science'? Just because Ben Goldacre is a long-haired trendy doesn't necessarily make him radical! It is possible to read it and to question what he says.

You are fond of saying that you like scientific evidence, when it suits you, and dismissing anything which you don't agree with as the crankosphere and yet the best you can come out with is Bad Science!

Elaine I am not trying to prove that the single jab is safer than the MMR. I'm just saying that if measles were the public health hazard that some would like us to believe, then a single jab would be offered.
Me? I wouldn't give my child the MMR for any reason. Not admittance to school. Nothing would persuade me.

The dept of health wrote to me in 2000 and said they were quite happy to licence a single jab, and quite happy to provide one on the NHS. But the pharmaceutical companies had not asked for the licences to be renewed so they coukdn't licence one. If they did ask they would consider it. I presume they never have.

This was the same letter where they told me that there was no lack of public confidence in the MMR. That they carried out surveys and ran focus groups and confidence in the MMR was higher than it had been prior to the publication of wakefield's paper . And I was quite mistaken to think otherwise (I had suggested to them that offering single jabs might increases measles vaccine uptake).

So if that was the case twelve years ago, at the height of the MMR controversy god only knows why they are still blaming Andy for every case of measles that so much as reaches the UK. They need to work out their story and stick to it.

Elaine - they know quite a lot about the immune profiles of autistic kids - I would presume that could provide some info. If you actually read some kf the papers i have linked to and follow the papers they cite you mgiht come up with somideas yourself. About eight years ago Natasha Campbell McBride had sime suggestions, perhaps they could dig those out, We managed to find some rests to run in ds3. . Or they could do something very general and look at family histories (followed up by further testing if necessary). I realise you appear to think that every child who can be vaccinated without damage must be and therefore you want a 100% test but hey ho. I just see extra information as helpful for decision making,

I wouldn't object to paying for singles locally. Although dare I point out that ds1 is going to cost the state millions in his lifetime. So you know, there is a financial benefit to ifentifying at risk children and altering the echedule to better suit them. Other than the fact it would save affected families enorrmois grief - which doesn't seem to be enough of a reason for you.

And cote had made a very good point about individual versus population risks - although you ignored it when I made that point earlier.

My oldest aunt died as a child from a vaccine preventable disease. Leaving children who are perfectly fine to be vaccinated unvaccinated exposes them to the risk of death. or do they not count? Arebthey collateral damage? Shame you cant ask my grandmother about the pain of losing a child, if she could see the debate today shed be turning over in her grave.

I fear that only when measles returns and we hear about children dying and being left brain damaged and dead will it become 'scary' enough again. Too bad about the 'collateral damage' along the way.

Individual care means exactly that. Vaccine policy is made at the population level but you are free and should raise any concerns with your children's doctors and work with them to decide what is in your child's best interest. The very few children who can't be immunized should be protected by herd immunity.

the idea of markers is in any case just theoretical speculation. But as I said, you can't get past the fact that you will be leaving children who are false positives (and there will be a lot, inevitably, even with high specificity because of the low prevalencenogradus positives) At the level of individual care, sure, do whatever tests you wish, as a screening tool - it wouldn't work even if you could develop markers (questionable in itself).

The hpa on why singles measles vaccine is not a good idea.
www.hpa.org.uk/Topics/InfectiousDiseases/InfectionsAZ/MMR/GeneralInformation/

And another from the collateral damage from rubella

www.sense.org.uk/what_is_deafblindness/rubella_mmr/vaccination/single_vaccines

Lavolcan
If you don't like Ben gold acres summary of the mmr scandal, try Paul offits. I thought you were looking for a reason why there was an mmr scare as opposed to other vaccines - although, of course, that's not quite true, in Nigeria they're convinced that the polio vaccines are full of sterilizing agents. So conspiracy theories are not just for the mmr! And in the 70s in was dtp and then there was a multiple sclerosis scare in France with another vaccine. Mmr is the scare du jour here in the uk but just as ridiculous as the claims about polio vaccines being a western plot to reduce Nigerian fertility. I see no difference and the discourse is frighteningly similar.

Here is a link to a summary of 25 studies showing no link between mmr and autism. 25! Good enough for me.
www.immunize.org/catg.d/p4026.pdf

Tabitha
You have summed up perfectly the differences between us. You wouldn't give the mmr no matter how many studies proved its safety. I wouldn't give the mmr if the scientific evidence showed it to be unsafe

Well the hpa appears to be disagreeing with cochrane there - read the cochrane conclusions - they said MMR safety studies were wholly inadequate. Perhaps the hpa needs to read them as well.

The only argument for giving MMR is the 'time left exposed' one. A) measles vaccine is known to work better the later you leave it (talking between 12 and 18 months here) and B) I don't think the risk of leaving someone exposed to mumps a little bit longer is particular dicing with death.

And will you please stop linking to studies that treat autism as one thing. I have explained why epidemiological studies doing that are pointless. You may as well count number of cases of autism versus number of cases of rubella in pregnancy (see what I did there - used one of your favourite triggers) and say 'ooh look no link people thinking rubella infection can be linked to autism are all mad and wrong and a bunch of nutters' Do you now understand why you have to identify the subgroup? Are you offended enough at being called a nutter? Just imagine if you watched your child have a seizure, trip to ITU, immediate regression then got a bunch of robots carrying out the wrong analysis over and over whilst calling you a nutter. Read Taylor et al, it's on your list so read the paper- they even SAY in their paper (never mind all their stas are wrong anyway) that they cannot discount a rare idiosyncratic response to the MMR - which is what we're talking about. 5% of autism cases - not all of them. I'll dig out another book for you to read - can't remember the title off the top of my head, but the bloke who wrote it developed the rabies vaccine so you should like him- he says in there that given suggested figures of 5 to 7 % of cases of autism triggered by MMR seems entirely reasonable. . No-one has ever suggested all 'autism' is caused by MMR so I don't know why people like you pretend they do.

I raise you my severely disabled child - you raise me a dead one from 60 years ago. Unbelievable. Let's play the shit happens roulette should we. And if I vaccinated ds3 - although there are clear signs he's in an 'at risk' group and he regressed and ended up in the same situation as his brother would you give the remotest damn? I'm guessing not as your concern for pagwatch's distressing stories have been so touching. You're only considering one side of the risk/benefit ratio. I'm looking at both.

I'm well aware measles carries with it a risk of death. And morbidity. Yep i'll throw my deaf mother into the measles sweepstake 'tough time' game again. Isn't it fun? Can you dredge up another dead person (oh no actually we need an anti measles vaccine to counter my deaf mother now don't we, I'll throw in one of the kids who ended up hospitalised after MMR). Your turn. I've given you the 1960's measles mortality figures (and you still haven't answered why measles is so much more deadly now than in the 1960's). You just seem unable to comprehend that my children might be at a slightly higher risk from vaccination that yours. Utterly bizarre.

This truly is totally pointless. You're not reading anything that's posted. And your total lack of concern for people living with severe disabilities is actually quite upsetting. We are allowed to choose to not vaccinate our children because we believe they're at higher risk and we're allowed to choose not to run that risk. And please if you have to keep quoting Paul Offit as someone to read can you please post with the disclaimer than he known nothing about autism so really shouldn't be writing about thing like FC. Yes his background gives him the right to comment on MMR. But not on communication methods for those who are very severely autistic. He's potentially doing a lot of damage to individuals there. I'd hate to hear of someone denied a voice because they hadn't realised that some people require a period of supportive typing before being able to operate devices independently. That would be a terrible terrible thing.

I thought I'd come across most theories - but this is a new one on me - might be interesting to some (and perhaps could be modified taking into account the new research on autism & maternal viruses during pregnancy).

www.nccn.net/~wwithin/autismrubella.pdf

Oh and apologies. Cochrane actually said MMR safety studies were largely, rather than wholly, inadequate.

"You wouldn't give the mmr no matter how many studies proved its safety."

To be fair, one would be nice to start the ball rolling.

plus Elaine - you can't ignore other people's experiences wholesale and then expect them to listen to yours

do you honestly think people don't know that people have died of measles?

plus also - well said saintly

Elaine You are right. I wouldn't give the MMR if it were proved safe as I don't see the need to mass vaccinate all babies against mumps and German measles.
How many of those 25 studies involve a scientist in a lab with a test tube? Or are they all just epidimiological studies which don't actually prove anything, do they? They can be used to show doubt that smoking causes cancer.

Elaine
So you lost an Aunt to a vaccine preventable disease or who knows - she might have been vaccine damaged by it? My grandfather died before the war when my father was a boy to a disease which is now easily treatable. I don't think Dad ever got over it. We can all speculate about what might have been but how do such anecdotes help advance the debate about the safety of vaccines.?

If you don't like Ben gold acres summary of the mmr scandal, try Paul offits.
You do like to misread what people write don't you? So Ben Goldacre blames the media instead and then latches onto Andrew Wakefield. But Goldacre doesn't question why the media latched onto it? There must have been sufficient people who were worried about the issues for the media to make something of it. Offit also latches onto autism. But none of this 'evidence' helps to address people's fears. Honest questions deserve honest answers, but few of the 'don't question, just vaccinate' are able to address the questions.

Leonie I bet people don't even know about the Yellow Card system. I didn't until I started reading these threads.

Elaine - she's stubborn but at least she keeps her cool [grudging admiration].

Elaine I think you'll find that herd immunity doesn't apply to vaccinated people, only people who have contracted the 'wild' diseases. Therefore when people go on about "95% coverage to achieve herd immunity", it's nonsense, to put it politely.
Here you go.

Yes I suppose it's easy to keep you cool if you just borrow other people's tragedies to try and prove your point rather than actually live with the result of an unusual response to an immune system activation (for want of a better word). I have to admit het refusal to even consider those with severe disabilities anywhere in the equation did make ne rather see red.

I would be interested in how much Elaine actually knows about the day to day care required for someone with severe autism.

Sigh. Elaine, "Only amateurs ignore anecdote" Ben Goldacre.
My sister is vaccine damaged, she is severely disabled, on a good day she can hold a sippy cup and requires 24 hour care. Her immediate collapse and subsequent cardiac arrest post (as in minutes) of being given the pertussis vaccine left her brain damaged and with a life time of chronic Guilliane-Barre Syndrome a recognised vaccine reaction. It happens. Her life is worth no less than little johnny down the road or you, or any other child for that matter. She isn't collatoral damage 'for the greater good' shes a genetically individual human being.
To ignore vaccine damage, play it down and advise parents, without access to thier history, medical records or any medical training whatsoever, that a MMR reaction is just 'a phase' Catherine my jaw hit the floor when I read that. Seriously, how stupid do you have to be to try to diagnose and advise a worried mum from the saftey of your computer screen, without having all the knowledge and facts is quite frankly idiotic and dangerous.
Ignoring children and adults who HAVE suffered vaccine damage is dangerous and does NOTHING at all to improve vaccine saftey.
My children are unvaccinated.