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Reactions to MMR - how long do they last?

605 replies

MrsMoppetMama · 17/07/2012 18:45

My DD (13 months) had her MMR 11 days ago, she had a bad reaction after about 3 days (high temp and trouble breathing) and we took her to urgent care center. Although this has now passed, she seems to be really out of sorts and has stopped sleeping through. Her normal routine was brilliant as she went down from about 7 - 7. Now she is waking every two hours and is very unhappy. Is this normal? is this because of her MMR or is it just a phase? She has also stopped taking her bottle before bed, is it likely that she has weaned herself? Help! It's been pretty easy going with her up to now so a bit stressed by all this.

OP posts:
fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 20/07/2012 22:19

I definitely will...thanks :)

Accuracyrequired · 20/07/2012 22:39

I thikn Elaine has gone for a lie down in a darkened room at the thought of justifying the Cervarix roll out

ElaineBenes · 21/07/2012 01:05

I completely agree with you accuracy. If the drug company presented false and misleading safety evidence and on this basis the vaccine was rolled out, then you have uncovered a serious and unjustifiable scandal.

I personally don't know enough about the Hpv vaccine to comment. Can you perhaps direct me to your source of information?

ElaineBenes · 21/07/2012 02:12

Marne

Sorry, I completely disagree with you regarding auto-immune disorders. There is no evidence of a causal relationship between vaccines and auto-immune disorders.

This book (downloadable as a PDF if you register) www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=10306 highlights eight different studies, all with different designs, which found no relationship between vaccines and type 1 diabetes. There's no doubt that type 1 diabetes incidence is increasing and there are various hypotheses but immunization being causally responsible is highly unlikely.

And I also completely disagree that having chicken pox or whooping cough makes your immune system stronger. Yes, you do have better immunity than vaccine acquired but that's all. And in the meantime, you have weakened your immune system by being sick (normally temporarily unless you're one of the unlucky dead or permanently damaged). Yes, MOST children recover from measles. About 30% (in the US) have complications like secondary ear infections (1 in 10 children get it and some suffer deafness from it), diarrhea and pneumonia (which is one of leading causes of death from measles complications and 1 in 20 children with measles will suffer from it). 1 in 1,000 will have encephalitis (likely to be left deaf and/or brain damaged) and 1-2 in 1,000 (in developed countries - much more in poor countries) will die. You also have fatal subacute sclerosing panencephalitis affecting 4-11 children per 100,000 cases occuring 7-10 years after infection.

So in what way can being infected by measles possibly make your immune system stronger? A whole load of kids will have had to have taken antibiotics to save their lives or sight or hearing, another whole bunch would have had convulsiosn from encephalitis and another load will be deaf, brain damaged or blind and then there's the children who'd have died.

I find this letter by Roald Dahl incredibly moving, testament to how fatal measles can be:

^MEASLES: A dangerous illness by ROALD DAHL (1986)

Olivia, my eldest daughter, caught measles when she was seven years old. As the illness took its usual course I can remember reading to her often in bed and not feeling particularly alarmed about it. Then one morning, when she was well on the road to recovery, I was sitting on her bed showing her how to fashion little animals out of coloured pipe-cleaners, and when it came to her turn to make one herself, I noticed that her fingers and her mind were not working together and she couldn?t do anything.
?Are you feeling all right?? I asked her.
?I feel all sleepy, ? she said.
In an hour, she was unconscious. In twelve hours she was dead.
The measles had turned into a terrible thing called measles encephalitis and there was nothing the doctors could do to save her.
That was twenty-four years ago in 1962, but even now, if a child with measles happens to develop the same deadly reaction from measles as Olivia did, there would still be nothing the doctors could do to help her.
On the other hand, there is today something that parents can do to make sure that this sort of tragedy does not happen to a child of theirs. They can insist that their child is immunised against measles. I was unable to do that for Olivia in 1962 because in those days a reliable measles vaccine had not been discovered. Today a good and safe vaccine is available to every family and
all you have to do is to ask your doctor to administer it.
It is not yet generally accepted that measles can be a dangerous illness.
Believe me, it is. In my opinion parents who now refuse to have their children immunised are putting the lives of those children at risk.
In America, where measles immunisation is compulsory, measles like smallpox, has been virtually wiped out.
Here in Britain, because so many parents refuse, either out of obstinacy or ignorance or fear, to allow their children to be immunised, we still have a hundred thousand cases of measles every year.
Out of those, more than 10,000 will suffer side effects of one kind or another.
At least 10,000 will develop ear or chest infections. About 20 will die.
LET THAT SINK IN.
Every year around 20 children will die in Britain from measles.
So what about the risks that your children will run from being immunised?
They are almost non-existent. Listen to this. In a district of around 300,000 people, there will be only one child every 250 years who will develop serious side effects from measles immunisation!
That is about a million to one chance. I should think there would be more chance of your child choking to death on a chocolate bar than of becoming seriously ill from a measles immunisation.
So what on earth are you worrying about?
It really is almost a crime to allow your child to go unimmunised.
The ideal time to have it done is at 13 months, but it is never too late. All school-children who have not yet had a measles immunisation should beg their parents to arrange for them to have one as soon as possible.
Incidentally, I dedicated two of my books to Olivia, the first was James and the Giant Peach?. That was when she was still alive. The second was ?The BFG?, dedicated to her memory after she had died from measles. You will see her name at the beginning of each of these books. And I know how happy she would be if only she could know that her death had helped to save a good deal of illness
and death among other children. ^

Accuracyrequired · 21/07/2012 05:25

The sources are: two of the three Cervarix safety studies and the Havrix adverse events reports and safety studies as detailed by the manufacturer. The adjuvant AS04 MPL is by common agreement one of the most powerful immune stimulants developed. You'll be able to find this out easily without reference to the "bizarro crankosphere".

This type of thing is not an isolated event and it's strange to claim that it is. It is not bizarre and cranky to develp a deep sense of mistrust based on real and serious malpractice, as opposed to what you might dismissively consider to be conspiracy theories. So less of that please.

There is quite a lot of evidence about vaccines and auto immune disorders, the first sentence of that post is profoundly misleading.

Accuracyrequired · 21/07/2012 05:26

I also dislike the use of anecdotes by people who dismiss the use of anecdotes and personal experience of vaccine damage. I consider it rather hypocritical.

Accuracyrequired · 21/07/2012 05:39

Perhaps I should say: obviously the safety studies, the vaccine ingredients, the adverse events reports and so on are all available online from the manufacturers.

Accuracyrequired · 21/07/2012 06:24

"It really is almost a crime to allow your child to go unimmunised. "

Sorry, bu what planet are you on?

Accuracyrequired · 21/07/2012 06:32

Yknow I'm so sick of reading everywhere and hearing everywhere about so so many problems and difficulties with unhappy poorly children who have autism or a form of AS disorder, on medication, who can't get the best out of their education, who get distressed, whose futures are uncertain, who will need help for years and years and years, who are unpopular, excluded, misunderstood, taken from pillar to post with appointments with social serives and teachers and doctors and tests and assessments, with exhausted parents, despairing familes, unsupported, ignored, rejected, threatened, and so many of them can point to vaccination as the start of their problems, and then someone comlacent comes along as says risk this, or it's almost a crime.

Sossiges · 21/07/2012 09:38

The strange thing is most people who are Hmm about vaccinations now are the same ones who happily took their kids along for jabs "because it was the right thing to do", dealt with the vaccine reactions and thought "never again". Odd that isn't it?

We're not just weird hippy anti-vaxers from the bizzaro crankosphere. Learning from experience is a great thing.

saintlyjimjams · 21/07/2012 09:54

Elaine - perhaps you would like to comment on the research (still in it's infancy) regarding autism and immune system dysfunction. That is potentially relevant to people such as Marne. I have been to two conferences where people working in the field (who publish in peer reviewed journals - not the 'crankosphere') have talked about their models (one involving dysfuntional cytokines, one mt disorders) and shown how 'vaccinations' might fit into their model. Both scientists working independently on separate models, both seeing wild and vaccine type viruses as 'indistinguishable' in their models. Now of course the vaccination bit of the model is never going to make it through peer review in the current climate unless they chose their journal very carefully, but these scientists were confident enough to say it in a room full of
hundreds of their peers, and they were happy to talk face to face
about it.

Pagwatch · 21/07/2012 10:04

Would it be helpful for me to post an emotionally charged piece about taking my son home after his MMR and watching as a huge red hot lump appeared on the injection site, how he wailed for hours and finally slumped on the sofa mewing like a hurt animal, how this lasted several days after which he stayed quiet and disinterested, white faced and disengaged. How he never spoke again. How he stopped looking at me. How he regressed from that day onward. Shall I post about life with a 15 year old with profound disabilities.

Would that be helpful. Because I am not sure it would be nearly as unhelpful as your Roald Dahl quote above.

saintlyjimjams · 21/07/2012 10:12

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/07/120717141010.htm

The most recent press release from a few days.

One of the guys I mentioned above who talked about vaccines was working on a similar model. Antenatal exposure to a viral infection followed by a post natal trigger.

All highly interesting stuff.

And how interesting that they're now looking at gut issues in their models as well. When I first entered the autism world mote than a decade ago I was told I was being ridiculous when I mentioned my son's gut issues. (Now largely resolved - no thanks to the NHS).

bumbleymummy · 21/07/2012 11:32

Elaine, you mentioned this 'weakened immune system' on the other thread and I asked you to clarify what it is that is weakened and whether you think it happens for all illnesses eg. Colds, flu etc.

Tabitha8 · 21/07/2012 19:00

I might have been more inclined to vaccinate my child if he could have been tested to see if he would be one of those left permanently damaged. However, no such test exists, does it? Why not?

Tabitha8 · 21/07/2012 19:04

As for a weakened immune system, it can only be temporary. That's why we are supposed to keep our children warm when they have a raised temp caused by a virus and not sponge them down with cold water.
I know several elderly people who caught measles as children. They recovered and are still alive several decades later so their immune systems are doing ok.

Marne · 21/07/2012 21:17

Many people have survived measles (me being one of them) with no damage to their imune systems.

At the end of the day its the parents choice wether to give their child the MMR and for most children they will not have any side effects, if i was given the choice again i would probably opt for the singles rather than the MMR, i dont think i could risk the MMR again (and feel guilty after). As i said before 'i'm not sure if the MMR caused dd2's autism' all i know is when i look back at photo's and video's of my dd2 before the MMR she had great eye contact and responded to my voice, around the time of the MMR eye contact faded away and she became non-responsive.
I don't think we will ever know if MMR is linked to Autism (and other sn's), i think it will always be covered up and dismissed as it would cost too much to compensate all the families that have been effected.

If you want to give your dc's the MMR then go ahead (your choice), i chose for my dd's to have it, sadly i reggret that choice but at the time it was the right thing to do. I will alway wonder if the MMR was to blame but i love my dd's how they are and have excepted that there lives will be harder than most childrens.

ElaineBenes · 21/07/2012 21:58

I'm reading 'autism false prophets' right now marne. I highly recommend it. It'll provide a counterbalance to the crankosphere.

saintlyjimjams · 21/07/2012 22:06

Or maybe Marne would prefer to read the peer reviewed research I've linked to. Written by people slightly less controversial than Paul Offit. Hmm And probably more relevant.

Although she vaccinated her children anyway so I don't quite know why you keep directing comments at her Elaine.

saintlyjimjams · 21/07/2012 22:25

And if you would like a counterbalance to Paul Offit. may I suggest reading Lucy's Story, by Lucy Blackman. Best book I have ever read. She also features in Douglas Biklen's 'Autism and the Myth of being the Person Alone'. She types independently now. A brief google brings up many other independent typers (who had to start with support). Thank goodness they didn't read him first eh?

saintlyjimjams · 21/07/2012 23:14

Oh another immune paper from this month, and it's open access

saintlyjimjams · 21/07/2012 23:23

This blog looks like essential reading for anyone interested in the immune system and autism. And there's a book too

ElaineBenes · 22/07/2012 02:25

The book I recommended is peer reviewed as it is published by Columbia university press, not some quack publishing house. This is how it works with university publishing presses. The peer review process OS even more rigorous.

ElaineBenes · 22/07/2012 06:43

And just a few points for the record.

Saintly in your link to the reuters article on pertussis, at no point does the paper say that INCIDENCE is higher in vaccinated children. And the other paper you linked to RAISE THE POSSIBILITY that pertussis vaccination could increase susceptibility to parapertussis. Please don't twist things just to make it sound as you wish it to sound.

Just like linking to papers which suggest that autism has linkages to the immune system doesn't say anything about the risks of vaccine vis-a-vis contracting the disease for any particular child. I was also at a scientific conference. Some researchers said, off the record, how furious they were that so many funds were going to the autism-vaccine link when they wanted to explore much more promising routes of enquiry but were restricted from doing so. But they also admitted that if they did end up finding something, it would be very easy to get published because there would be so much publicity.

And Tabitha8

You asked why does no test to identify children who would be seriously damaged by a vaccine exist. Well, firstly, even the theory that you could identify such children through some markers is weak and controversial so to begin with you may not even be able to identify markers. Secondly, you have a problem that the number of children is going to be extremely small. You have to make a decision between a test which is highly sensitive (ie you capture ALL the children who would react) but not so specific (ie you include children who would be fine) or lower sensitivity (so you may miss some children) but more specific (so you have less children being mistakenly excluded). Most screening tests have to play-off sensitivity versus specificity. When you're trying to capture a very small number of children, then specificity is hugely important. Effectively, if you have a very sensitive test, then you are more than likely to include many children who are perfectly fine to be vaccinated and who will then be exposed to the pathogen, especially with herd immunity being decreased. You also don't know if those children will be the same ones to die or be permanently damaged by the pathogen. If you then increase the specificity you will then decrease the sensitivity and then the test will be meaningless anyhow given the very small numbers involved. What would you recommend doing?

And is there a screening test to see if your child will be the one who dies from measles? The risk is 1 in 1,000 - far far far higher than any risk of a severe reaction from the MMR (not sure if there have even been any deaths). Why are you insistent on a screening test for a vaccine but more than happy to risk the higher chance of death or permanent disability from the disease? If you're free-riding on herd immunity (although that strategy may not last unfortunately), you could at least say so.

And, don't forget, the elderly people you see who had measles are the survivors. You don't see the ones who died as children. And in fact you don't 'see' the deaths averted at all. Of course no-one knows if their child is the one who would have died or been severely damaged had they not been vaccinated. More than likely Roald Dahl's daughter, Olivia, would be 57 years old today had a vaccine been available in 1962. We'd be seeing a hell of a lot of more anecdotes about 'measles damaged' (and dead) children without the measles vaccine.

Pagwatch · 22/07/2012 07:49
Confused

That all sounds remarkably like 'it is just too much effort to try and identify these kids'

any test that screened out any DC would be a blessing for those individual families.

And seriously, given that you seem to struggle to express any sympathy for those of us with severly disabled children, could you lay off the Roald Dahl stuff.
It seems hypocritical to see you mawkishly waving his loss at me when you can't seem to summon any sympathy for the life my son has to live.
When my son is 57 he will probably be living alone in some residential unit not understanding where everyone who loved him has gone

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