Very Very anxious about mmr

[ariane5]

My 3 dcs (10,5 and 2) have had all their jabs except mmr. When dd1 was little I made the decision not to have it done as read so much about it that scared me and I couldn't bear to give her something that could potentially make her ill.

I know that the mmr is now supposedly safe and the doctor who caused the initial worry struck off but I cannot get out of my head what I read.My new gp has been on and on at me for a good 18months to get dcs vaccinated with mmr and I have cancelled numerous appts-now EVERYTIME I go to gp they spend at least 15 minutes asking me to have mmr-they even said last week that any one of measles/mumps/rubella could be fatal to my children and were quite aggressive in getting this point across-not the best idea as Iam 7 months pg, terribly hormonal and worried about the jab anyway without feeling like my children could be struck down at any time and be seriously ill-it doesn't help me make a decision when they are being so pushy.

ds and dd2 have severe egg allergy too but they have said they would be fine to have it done at gp surgery and would not have a reaction.

I feel torn-if i do it I will be terrified and not sleep for a good 3 weeks untill all3 components of the jab have worked in case of a severe reaction and if i don't I will be panicking that they will catch measles/mumps/rubella.

All 3 have other health issues-a genetic disorder affecting connective tissue(eds) dd1 has a chest prob(pectus excavatum) causing reduced lung capacity and ds and dd2 severe allergies and a resulting poor diet.All 3 catch EVERYTHING going and are unwell a great deal and the gp has mentioned that their immune systems are not great and measles etc could be very bad for them.

I have tried everything to come to a decision but the more I read the more confused and upset Iam not knowing what to do and I feel so pushed by the gp and every dr i see at the surgery.

I really do not know what to do.

I love you too LeonieDelt and I am really quite fond of the comparison. Virus attacks immune system, opportunistic infections follow - I guess that is one situation where you would be lucky if it is "just" measles, not HIV, but the high rate of complications with measles infections still remains and it is only thanks to antibiotics that not more children die of measles pneumonia (which used to kill many more kids than the encephalitis).

Leonie, sorry for my late reply. I wasn't saying Wakefield was wrong, or right - merely that we still don't KNOW. I too feel very cross with the way his opponents simply keep repeating their Orwellian claims.

Catherina is also technically right about the measles virus, but diseases' immunosuppressive responses vary in strength, and you could make the same kind of claim for any transmissible illness. Catherina, I think this IS scaremongering - measles is in the main and for the majority a mild illness, not like AIDS. Care to cite the typical rate for pneumonia as a complication?

Sure Sieglinde - for example this outbreak in a developed country (Switzerland, 2003)

www.bullmed.ch/pdf/2003/2003-27/2003-27-667.PDF

In the first 22 weeks of 2003, 464 cases of measles were recorded, 11% had complications:

3 cases of encephalitis,
14 Pneumonias (that would be about 3%, a low rate),
3 cases of suspected Pneumonia
11 cases of otitis
1 Delirium
1 Myocarditis,
1 case of generalised tonic seizures
1 gingivostomatitis,
1 hepatitis with suspected appendicitis,
1 otitis with hepatitis and
14 hospitalisations without specified complication.
26 (5,6%) persons were hospitalised, one of them for nearly 6 weeks due to encephalitis.

In an outbreak in Greece, Jan to July 2010, 18 pneumonias occured in 126 registered cases (just over 14%).

Spain (Andalusia) 2010, 25 measles, 2 pneumonia (8%)

Italy (Ferrara) 2010, 19 measles, 1 pneumonia (5%)

France (Provence, Alpes, Cotes D'Azur) 310 measles, 23 peumonia (7.5%), 1 encephalitis

(all above Eurosurveillance Spotlight Issue on Measles)

So, about 8% get pneumonia, on average, 1 in 12. That is a lot, in my eyes.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16237742 Measles virus (MV) causes transient but profound immunosuppression resulting in increased susceptibility to secondary bacterial and viral infections.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12797445 Measles virus (MV) infection induces both an efficient MV-specific immune response and a transient but profound immunosuppression characterised by a panlymphopenia that occasionally results in opportunistic infections responsible for a high rate of mortality in children.

Causes of lymphopenia include AIDS

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12639986 Although MV infection itself is not commonly lethal, MV-induced suppression of the immune system results in a greatly increased susceptibility to opportunistic bacterial infections that are largely responsible for the morbidity and mortality associated with this disease.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11899069 A profound, transient suppression of immune functions during and after the acute infection is the major cause of more than one million cases of infant deaths associated with measles worldwide.

Stick you fingers in your ears and chant "lalalaIdontlikeyouandyourblog" - measles still cause a transient and profound immunosuppression that can make kids really really sick.

Pops head in to see the crazy anti vaccination rubbish still spouted.

Thanks, Catharina.

Some of the complications you cite are pretty mild, though - otitis aka ear infection, for example.

Pondering further... I agree that one in twelve sounds high. However, it may be a difficult sample to assess. My own ds and dh are terribly subject to pneumonia - they have both had it three times, and both been forced to take steroids as treatments because three courses of antibiotics left it intact. Neither of them is asthmatic, and neither has residual TB. Neither smokes. My dd and I never get it, so it's not my bathroom hygiene

I wonder if people who in the developed world succumb to measles are an atypical sample? Sorry, this is a bit half-formulated, but infection and succumbing are separate things. Most of the Victorian stuff about putting on a muffler and wellies doesn't prevent infection, but prevents you from getting sick once infected. I wonder if the people who succumbed were a bit immune-depleted anyway?

Also want to add that though pneumonia can kill, it usually doesn't kill otherwise healthy young people in the developed world. The real high-risk scenario for measles is actually encephalitis. (Oddly, I had a childhood friend who got this with measles, and it weakened her heart, so that she died at 18.) BUT IT IS MUCH RARER than pneumonia.

Leonie, we don't know what we ALL want to know - 'is there a CAUSAL LINK, direct or indirect, between the MMR vaccine and autism?' I feel sure the question could be asked with greater layers of empirical method, but it's the one the OP is asking in her long anxious nights. Me too. Not expecting an answer anytime soon.

But MY point is that this is what people want to know.

What do you think he asked?

Not clear why you are casting me as the enemy, Leonie; I'm mostly on your side, and my dd had the single vaccines (she is now 12). I didn't formulate my question as 'does MMR cause autism', but as 'is there a causal link' - perhaps I should have added 'however long and however multifactorial'?

Yes, but I am not the meeja. I hate the unspecific coverage and the self-righteous tone too. Sorry to hear your own child is unwell just now.

7% ????????

Posie - a wonderous, unmeasurable, guestimated 7% subset of autistic children who developed autism because of MMR/vaccination.

Leonie - sorry about the multitude of bugs for your little one.

So LeonieDelt - did Wakefield not say the below in the press conference accompanying the release of the 1998 Lancet paper?

DR ANDREW WAKEFIELD: I think if you asked members of the team that have investigated this they would give you different answers. And I have to say that there is sufficient anxiety in my own mind of the safety, the long term safety of the polyvalent, that is the MMR vaccination in combination, that I think that it should be suspended in favour of the single vaccines, that is continued use of the individual measles, mumps and rubella components.

DR ANDREW WAKEFIELD: Well as yet we don?t know, but there is no doubt that if you give three viruses together, three live viruses, then you potentially increase the risk of an adverse event occurring, particularly when one of those viruses influences the immune system in the way that measles does. And it may be, and studies will show this or not, that giving the measles on its own reduces the risk of this particular syndrome developing.

DR ANDREW WAKEFIELD: My opinion, again, is that the monovalent, the single vaccines, measles, mumps and rubella, are likely in this context to be safer than the polyvalent vaccine.

Leonie,

you are right, sorry for the sarcasm.