Debate on Vaccines

[Emsyboo]

I have seen a few threads where mums have an opinion pro or con vaccine and asking for more information I would like to know your reasons for being one or the other.
My MIL is very anti vaccine and told me 4 out of 30 children die from vaccinations - I don't believe this to be true think their may be a decimal point missing although I have seen some posts from people who seem to have backed up information about vaccines.

I am pro vaccine but like to see both sides before I make a decision so if anyone has any information pro or con and more importantly has info to back up I would be really interested.

Thanks

larry - re "citing a paper without highlighting its conclusions in a meaningful manner"

Conclusions are there for all to read for themselves. They are written in plain English. People on this thread don't need hand-holding to read plain English.

"It assumes that everyone acts purely for their own benefit. Luckily, we are not all as selfish as you."

You are funny We already established that parents think first and foremost about their own children. If you call that "selfishness", yes, we are all "selfish". So are you, I imagine.

"probabilities used are the "perceived morbidity risks", not the actual ones, leading to BAD decisions"

That is normal in Game Theory, which looks at real life, not an ideal one where everyone has the same information and draws the same conclusions from it. Are you sure you studied this stuff?

Incidentally, these were my exact words in a previous post:

CoteDAzur Wed 20-Jul-11 22:37:48
Cost: Risk (real or perceived) to baby's health.

CoteDAzur Wed 20-Jul-11 18:25:29
People look out first and foremost for those they love. We will do things that benefit others, out of the goodness of our hearts, if and only if these altruistic acts have no real or perceived risk to ourselves & our loved ones.

"Even if your conclusions were correct"

Not my conclusions. And if you believe the authors have made mistakes in their Game Theory analysis, please do say where.

"great argument for compulsory vaccination because it would show a divergence between population benefit and individual benefit"

Is there a name for the planet from which you are broadcasting? I am only wondering, because on ours, people own their own bodies and are never subjected to invasive procedures for "population benefit" There is no compulsory blood donation, no compulsory organ donation, and certainly no compulsory vaccination. "Great argument" or not.

If anyone is interested, MMR is not required at schools here in France.

Anyone seen or read "Never let me go". Interesting study of organ donation "for the good of all" being a reality...

Illumina and Cote,

We have not "established" that everyone is selfish. This nihilistic and amoral theory whereby all acts are morally equivalent because they give some form of payback in terms of seratonin/dopamine is not the world most people inhabit. In my world there are moral and immoral decisions and moral and immoral people.

Cote,

I suspect there are no mistakes in the maths of the paper, but, like all real world simulations, the assumptions are huge. It also assume that all people act purely for their own gain. As I have said many times, this is not true of the human race.

To those of you who say that the schools know they are unvaccinated because of personal opinion rather than medical exclusion, how do you let the parents of children you meet at the supermarket know, the pregnant mothers you meet at the local park or pool? The child post chemo sitting in the doctors surgery??
How do you let them know of the risk??
I am genuinely interested to know how you responsibly minimise the risk to the vulnerable groups you see without realising.
Compulsory vaccination for dangerous disease does exist. It is not possible to be allowed into certain areas of south america without proof of yellow fever vaccine.

As for working in the NHS, employers would be irresponsibly to put someone in contact with a debilitating and potential fatal disease that is entirely preventable.
They don't force people at gun point, but can make it a reasonable condition of employment.

Compulsory vaccination for dangerous diseases does exist

PIMS,

As two of them have admitted, they really do not care about the post chemo child sitting on the bench. Any infitessimal risk to their own child is not worth taking ever. They probably also own large 4x4s (safest for their own children but most dangerous for everyone else's) and would think nothing of lying about their children's symptoms at A&E in order to take priority over other sicker children.

They believe that we are all ultimately selfish and all acts are morally equivalent.

I also think they have no idea of how restrictive and invasive every single government would be were we to be struck by a real killer pandemic. I wish them luck in their bunker with their stash of Kalashnikovs.

lg - it's quite a large leap from "there are no truly altruistic acts" to "all acts are morally equivalent".

The rest of your post is simply insulting and does not warrant the time spent to formulate an answer.

You reveal much about yourself with its content.

Actually I have been in to the school as we had a post chemotherapy child in a different year at dds school.

We discussed it. The parents were consulted, her doctors were consulted and I was told that whilst I was prepared to do whatever made that Childs parents comfortable their best advice was that my dd did not constitute any greater risk than many others in the school including those who are vaccinated but contract the illnesses anyway.

I am not sure why the bludgeoning crass views of random people on the Internet should be more important than the views of that childs specialists.

And, fwiw having looked at your list of socially unacceptable behaviours, I walk to school, own a mini for the few times I drive and have never lied in a doctors surgery or an a&e dept.

But the sweeping generalisations are helping paint a picture of your desire to continue to try and be randomly rude in what (I can only imagine) you see as a diatribe of scathing wit rather than seek to interact withpeople who are dealing with challenging circumstances in an even faintly empathetic way.
The moralising lectures are a little tiring coming from someone who clearly gives not the smallest shit about a decent chunk of the people on here.

Perhaps you could give me your thoughts on how you feel society shows it's responsibility to those children who are damaged when their parents act, as you would have it, to benefit the community?
They should be supported and cared for and their parents supported and cared for shouldn't they? Like you are demonstrating here?

PIMS - re:how do you let the parents of children you meet at the supermarket know, the pregnant mothers you meet at the local park or pool? The child post chemo sitting in the doctors surgery??
How do you let them know of the risk??

This is a good question. I can only say that I think it is every pregnant woman's responsibility to check her rubella status. My child should not be responsible for her lack of foresight. I stay away from doctors and hospitals as much as I can and tend to go at non-busy times anyway. I'd be more worried about picking up something myself, as has happened more than once! I'm likely to vaccinate my DC against measles, so likely to be a mute point and mumps is mild for the majority.

I have information about how long children should remain away from school/the public and incubation times once exposure to a disease is known and would follow this strictly. I hope any parents who's child has an illness will let people they meet know. Judging by experience so far, this does happen.

I know it's not infallible, but it's the choice I'm comfortable with.

PIMS, unless you have had your child's (and your own) immunity tested you don't know whether they are immune from the vaccines or are also capable of contracting and passing on those diseases. In fact, you could actually be more likely to pass it on if you are taking your children into doctor's surgeries under the impression that it couldn't possibly be one of those diseases that you've vaccinated against.

That they couldn't possibly be ill with one of the diseases that you've vaccinated against *

Rubella is not a a dangerous disease?
It can cause pneumonia, encephalitis, in healthy patients not to mention that it can cause congenital rubella syndrome and miscarriage in pregnant women.

Yes it is normally a mild disease that does not make it 'safe'

Again, perspective. Pregnant women aside, rubella is incredibly mild. When I had it I didn't even feel ill, just a rash that lasted about a day. It was only when my status was checked that I found out I'd had it (and didn't need a jab - hurrah).

I think it's a woman's responsibility to check and know her status. I know that's not everyone's view and that's fine.

PW "But the sweeping generalisations are helping paint a picture of your desire to continue to try and be randomly rude in what (I can only imagine) you see as a diatribe of scathing wit rather than seek to interact withpeople who are dealing with challenging circumstances in an even faintly empathetic way."

Im not sure what part of asking a genuine question about how people who choose not to vaccinate risk assess for other peoples health.
Im not judging or generalising.
I asked specifically about children whos parents had chosen not to vaccinate rather than those who are medically excluded . I have always acknowledged that vaccines do carry risk and therefor will not be suitable for everyone.
I have only stated clear facts (particularly about compulsory vaccination)
You wont find my opinion on that in any of my posts.

IS, I appreciate your honest and accept that your decision is not infallible

"As two of them have admitted, they really do not care about the post chemo child sitting on the bench. Any infitessimal risk to their own child is not worth taking ever. They probably also own large 4x4s (safest for their own children but most dangerous for everyone else's) and would think nothing of lying about their children's symptoms at A&E in order to take priority over other sicker children."
Come on, Larry why are you spouting such nonsense?

By the way, it's very probable that my immunity to measles and whooping cough has now worn off. [Tabitha makes note to paint big red cross on her and her child's pram so that everytime we go out, people will know that we could be a health hazard].

Complications of rubella are infrequent; they are observed more frequently among teenagers and adults than children. Postinfectious encephalitis occurs in about 1 per 6000 rubella cases, usually within a week of the exanthem, but may occur without any rash. The encephalitis may be immune-mediated. In general the prognosis is good, although fatal cases have been reported
Progressive rubella panencephalitis is a rare and devastating complication. Hemorrhagic complications are estimated to occur in approximately 1 per 3000 cases and more frequently among children than adults

Hobman, T, Chantler, J. Rubella Virus. In: Fields Virology, 5th ed, Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, Philadelphia, PA 2007. p. 1069.

Best, JM, Icenogle, JP, Brown, DWG. Rubella. In: Principles and Practices of Clinical Virology, 6th ed, Zuckerman, AJ, Banatvala, JE, Schoub, BD, et al (Eds), John Wiley & Sons, Ltd, West Sussex, UK 2009. p. 561-92.

PIMS If you accept that vaccines carry risk, why should I put my otherwise healthy child at risk?

Tabs - loving ur red cross on the pram idea

I'm not being picky but I thought ur was text speak for you are? [Here is one who doesn't use a cellphone very often].

PIMS - Fair enough but I'm never going to consider anything other than a mild diseases for the healthy majority. Like most things, rare complications can occur. Not going to inject for those stats, sorry. If I judged all my decisions on things like that I wouldn't step outside the house!

Tabs
All medicines carry risk, including antibiotics, but I would still prescribe them if the benefit outweighed the risk. The risk of serious side effects from vaccination to an otherwise healthy child is minimal. I have posted the risks and chances of occurring, but happy to do so again.

I read ages ago about someone who died because she caught a cold. Something about the virus infecting her brain?

Tabs I use interchangeably for your and you are, apologies if this has caused any confusion

PIMS Shall I not mention aluminium again ? I'm finding websites that tell of the dangers, never mind several pages in Halvosen's book.
Now, what other additives are there?