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Debate on Vaccines

1000 replies

Emsyboo · 27/06/2011 14:18

I have seen a few threads where mums have an opinion pro or con vaccine and asking for more information I would like to know your reasons for being one or the other.
My MIL is very anti vaccine and told me 4 out of 30 children die from vaccinations - I don't believe this to be true think their may be a decimal point missing although I have seen some posts from people who seem to have backed up information about vaccines.

I am pro vaccine but like to see both sides before I make a decision so if anyone has any information pro or con and more importantly has info to back up I would be really interested.

Thanks

OP posts:
Tabitha8 · 20/07/2011 17:49

That's interesting. I didn't think there was mercury in any childhood jab. You say only for those under the age of 6?
Anyway, what about the aluminium?

PIMSoclock · 20/07/2011 17:50

And you admitted that you would accept a rubella jab to protect your unborn child.

Why not give ur children the same protection post birth?!
Measles can and does kill. Measles is a very real risk and on the rise in Ireland and the uk. It is a very real risk

Tabitha8 · 20/07/2011 17:52

Rubella jab? Who mentioned that? Not me.

PIMSoclock · 20/07/2011 17:53

It's your choice untill they are old enough to decide for themselves.
You can only do what u think is best. It is a shame that you have done this out of fear rather than informed decision.
A true failing on the part of the health professionals to give you ALL the necessary information

Tabitha8 · 20/07/2011 17:54

I think I've found all the info I need from other sources.
I've said all along that this is a very hard decision.

Anyway, what about the aluminium?

PIMSoclock · 20/07/2011 17:54

Your first post on the first page of this...
I can see the point for those who are at risk eg pregnant ladies who are not already immune

Tabitha8 · 20/07/2011 17:56

Absolutely, but then I am not anti-vaccine. I had a Rubella jab aged about 14, not at age 12 mths. I think that programme should start again but with a change - check for immunity prior to giving the jab. Many of us would've caught Rubella prior to having the jab.

PIMSoclock · 20/07/2011 17:57

Sorry, I'm not understanding the aluminium problem.
It's a safe naturally occurring element that has a low reported list of adverse incident

I take calcium, magnesium and zinc supplements, is this wrong too?

PIMSoclock · 20/07/2011 17:58

And the risk of measles??

Tabitha8 · 20/07/2011 17:58

Thinking about it, I'm not sure I would've wanted to be pregnant and not immune to German Measles.

PIMSoclock · 20/07/2011 18:01

It is a sobering thought when u do consider the very real and well documented risks

PIMSoclock · 20/07/2011 18:01

And I really appreciate your honesty Smile

Tabitha8 · 20/07/2011 18:02

PIMS you say to me about the risk of measles and I'll always say to you the risk of the MMR.
www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/health/vaccinations-the-debate-13462986.html
Note at the end about aluminium. Not sure what that has to do with supplements. No one takes aluminium supplements, do they?

Tabitha8 · 20/07/2011 18:03

Single measles jabs are still available and, every now and then, we consider the options.

PIMSoclock · 20/07/2011 18:06

Nope, but it's in ur deodorant and some of ur antacids

Tabitha8 · 20/07/2011 18:08

Ah, yes, always check the ingredients. Avoid parabens also, but that's all off topic.
Aluminiium overload causes brain damage. Why is it acceptable to put it in vaccines? That is not an anti-vaccine statement. That is one of the many reasons we haven't vaccinated our child.

Tabitha8 · 20/07/2011 18:09

Did you mean "your" or "our"?

Tabitha8 · 20/07/2011 18:15

One last point before I finish the dinner, is it not correct that sticking aluminium in an arm is far more dangerous even that ingesting it? Something to do with absorption. Must re-read that bit in my Halvorsen book.

CoteDAzur · 20/07/2011 18:25

" For a society to function, we have to pull together collectively to help one another and ourselves ... and infects someone else's newborn who then goes deaf, (you) are acting selfishly and irresponsibly."

I have news for you, larry: People look out first and foremost for those they love. We will do things that benefit others, out of the goodness of our hearts, if and only if these altruistic acts have no real or perceived risk to ourselves & our loved ones. I will not donate a kidney for a stranger, nor will I walk a tightrope even if it means saving ten people from certain death (So yes, I am selfish, and so are you). I will, however, donate regularly and do voluntary work because that presents no risk to me and my family.

Similarly, I will not vaccinate DC with MMR because there seems to be a minute risk that they might then regress and become autistic. I know very well that the link is not proven and that the doctor who first suggested a link has been publicly crucified so that nobody else will research the subject. Still, I am not prepared to call the many parents who claim this link loons and paranoid delusional dimwits.

My primary responsibility is towards my children, not some faceless pregnant woman who should be responsible of her own health, rather than rely on my tiny baby. Faced with the minute risk of a grave and irreversible condition, I will refrain from vaccinating my children against mild childhood illnesses. DC have had measles vaccine. If they have not had mumps by the time they are pre-pubescent, they can have the vaccines then. DS has already had rubella, aged 4 months, and DD can have the rubella vaccine before she starts university, if she is not already immune by then.

All this and more have been studied with Game Theory. I have previously linked to a few such analyses on other vaccine threads, all of which conclude that it is perfectly rational for parents not to vaccinate their children under these circumstances. You should be able to find them if you search my posts.

larrygrylls · 20/07/2011 19:00

Cote D'azur,

If you have the money and time to be selective about which vaccines to give your children and when, good for you. We are all, first and foremost, selfish on behalf of ourselves and families but there is a balance. Vaccination is a trade off between miniscule risks to you and your family versus meaningful risks for you and your family PLUS substantial risks to those more vulnerable.

The subject you are referring to is actually called Games theory and, in certain circumstances, under its constraints, people do behave altruistically. I suspect that under most Games Theory scenarios, people would vaccinate given the risk/reward balance. I also suspect that it would very much be dependent on how you model it, so I am sure someone could make the opposite case.

seeker · 20/07/2011 19:27

"Seeker: you are engaged in classic bullying behaviour. Disappearing when you are non-plussed, because you can't stand up for yourself, and coming back with sarcasm and sniping when you think you can egg someone else on."

How is it bullying to ask you to substantiate categorical statements? When did I disappear? When was I non-plussed? And who did I egg on? I admit to one small piece of sarcasm - but but not sniping. Asking people to justify their statements is NOT sniping.

PIMSoclock · 20/07/2011 19:37

tabs, I am really struggling to find any scientific articles that recognise aluminium from vaccines can cause clinical signs of brain damage.
aluminium is cleared by the kidneys (quickly)
in end stage renal failure where the kidneys can not clear aluminium the
measured plasma aluminum levels are frequently elevated to approximately 400 to 1000 µg/L BEFORE there are signs of encephalitis
the levels in vaccines would not alter plasma concentration at all

WHO agreed that aluminium in vaccines was safe
www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/aluminium/statement_112002/en/index.html

Verdier F, Burnett R, Michelet-Habchi C, Moretto P, Fievet-Groyne F, Sauzeat E. Aluminium assay and evaluation of the local reaction at several time points after intramuscular administration of aluminium containing vaccines in the Cynomolgus monkey. Vaccine; 23(11):1359-1367, 2005

I have seen some biochemical papers that describe the cellular reactions, but dont indicate the clinical picture that goes along with the cellular pathology they describe.

The current vaccines we have are considered to be safe and effective, with minimal risks as described

PIMSoclock · 20/07/2011 19:50

And before anyone else picks up on that, I know certain vaccines containing aluminium have been withdrawen.
Aluminium however was not the isolated causal problem
There are no vaccines currently in circulation that have any safety concern relating to aluminium

rosi7 · 20/07/2011 20:16

A very nice film to watch if you want to find out how national health institutes and pharmaceutical industry are working for our all health and well-being.

If people are still naive enough to believe official statements, they can do so - I certainly won't. And it does not really matter anymore how many of these official documents will be presented - they will not be able to regain credibiltiy with me.

PIMSoclock · 20/07/2011 21:56

I think I would take my chances with the world health organisation over a YouTube video

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