Alcoholic and breastfeeding

[Wishtoaskaquestion]

I am a regular but wish to remain annoynomous for this.

Family member is an alcoholic, received treatment, had stopped drinking became pregnant delivered a delighful baby about 6 weeks ago.

It is now clear she is drinking again but continues to breastfeed. Baby has very loose, very frequent stools but is gaining weight slowly - how much harm is she doing by continuing this farce and continuing to feed. Reference sites would be very helpful if anyone has them.

How do you KNOW that she is breastfeeding whilst drunk? By that I mean she might be expressing milk when she's sober.... she might be giving some formula. Have you ACTUALLY witnessed her putting her baby to the breast when she is drinking?????????

I can't help feeling that there are alot of assumptions being made about this Mum who CLEARLY by continuing breastfeeding feels as though she is doing her best for her baby (I found breastfeeding incredibly difficult).... and also CLEARLY is depressed to be drinking that heavily..... But again I stress, HOW DO YOU KNOW that she is drinking 2 to 3 bottles of wine a day.... every day?? Finding a couple of empty bottles in her car doesn't really confirm that she drinks that much everyday does it???

Sorry if I'm missing something, but I haven't read through all the posts.

Wishtoask, yes, my view is very judgemental on this. It should probably be a parp subject for me, however I couldn't read and pass on without posting when I feel the baby is at serious risk.

Good luck with it, it's a nightmare situation. Will you keep us updated, please?

wishtoask - alcoholics are very secretive especially when they know they shouldn't be drinking. I imagine this poor woman is completely wracked with guilt as to what she is doing to her baby - unfortunately, that 'guilt' makes for a vicious circle and will probably make her drinking much worse.

As for her husband, I'm afraid pretending that you can't see a problem is very common - he probably doesn't want to admit it to himself and alcoholics are very clever and are often v hardened to drink so he may not realise how much she is getting through.

She needs a counsellor - you said she had private treatment before - if you can, you need to approach her very gently and see if you can convince her to go back and see her counsellor again. I would try not to apportion any blame (if you talk to her), try and see it as an illness and see if you can get her to some help.

Wishtoask, I did find one study on women in a culture where they regularly drink an alcoholic mixture made from a plant. Metabolised as ethanol (sp?) just like any other form of alcohol. The results were confusing but did appear to show some effect on growth. They followed the children for their first year so didn't examine longer-term development.

Not very clear cut or helpful, but demonstrates that there is some negative effect.

What an awful situation.
Please also consider how this womans drinking is affecting her judgement, physical actions etc not just the effect of her drinking on the breastmilk. It would be easy for her to have an accident whilst caring for the baby, carrying them around etc.

Thanks again. Still bumbling about with what to do. I am NOT going to raise with her or her DH directly. Not going to call SS at this stage either.

Sackache is right in that the evidence of 'drinking' is not overwhelming and I am sure a SW would visit, be assured that all was okay and leave. However Sackache I disagree that she continues to bf because she thinks it is best - she continues to because it is expected of her. She is not obvioulsy depressed either - she is an alcoholic, there is not always a connection. Depression is of course worth considering.

I truly believe she is drinking again and can't find any other reason for a recovering alcohol to have an empty bottle hidden.

Whilst composing this response I have arranged to meet with a GP friend. I have explained I am looking for advice and they are going to source appropriate contacts/information for me. I have also left a message with my HV to call me.

WTAAQ - Perfectly happy stable people don't become alcoholics..... there is clearly a reason for her drinking!
The point is not whether she's drinking or not..... the point is whether she is breastfeeding whilst having dangerous levels of alcohol in her system! So unless you are witnessing her latching her baby on whilst stinking of booze.... then I still think its a HUGE leap to assume she's damaging her child by consuming 2-3 bottles of wine a day and breastfeeding whilst drunk!

I think you need a lot more proof before you take matters into your own hands.

wish, I read both Sack's and ggglimpopo's posts and thoroughly agreed with both which goes to show how undecided I feel on this one!

As Sack says, how do you KNOW it's 2-3 bottles a day? Just because one bottle was found that doesn't lead to that conclusion. Has anyone asked her how her drinking's going? Seeing as she was a known alcoholic before she's presumably spoken about it? How well do you know her and her husband?

BUT as ggglimpopo says IF you do KNOW this is happening you MUST report her. Yes, hardened alcoholics do function but they also get very ill sometimes and can collapse, even have fits, especially if they abstain from drinking suddenly. You can't let this remain unknown with the healthcare team. Presumably this woman will have enough awareness if she's been a recovering alcoholic when pregnant to know IF she's drinking too much and will know that she needs to sort it out.

I don't envy you your position one bit.

Sack, more to the point, alcoholics seem perfectly happy and stable because they're permanently medicated. It affects the serotonin levels in the brain in the way that taking an anti-depressant would. I doubt very much that this woman, IF she's drinking regularly would seem happy and stable after 24 hours without booze.

Swings - By her own admission the evidence that this Mum is drinking heavily again is not overwhelming....never mind breastfeeding whilst drunk.

I think you're right.... if she's a known alcoholic.... and managed to give up alcohol whilst pregnant, then a casual conversation about how its going would probably reveal something.

My sister is an alcholic and has given us cause to worry over the years (two small children). I always found it difficult to discuss alcohol with her as if it was a taboo subject and to this day have not confronted her directly about her condition.

Desperate to know how to deal with her I bought a couple of books and one story always stick with me. It was the story of an alcoholic in the work place who thought he was managing to hide his condition and would have a long lunch breal every day. One day he returned to his desk to find an AA leaflet left by someone. The shock of knowing that he had not been hiding it at all prompted him to get help. Could you do something like this write a letter naybe even anonymously telling her the game is up so to speak.

My Dad actually spoke to my sisters Doc and told her about her drinking in the hope that some of the many mysterious illnesses she suffered from would make sense. Hasn't made any difference.

Alcoholics are generally in huge denial which is why my sister can tell me, with a straight face,that her Doc tells he she needs to drink for her stress levels. She has also managed to blame her poor liver function test on Yellow Jaundice she had as a teenager. Oh and her seizures are nothing ot do with her drink.

Anyway I have never been able to directly tell her that we all know she has a major problem but I feel it is what I should do and if you can you should too.

What a terribly sad story Eaney.

This is close to home for me because of my father. The secrecy thing is mad. My father used to keep medicine bottles full of gin down the sides of armchairs and the sofa. He once told me when he'd quit drinking that he'd even smuggled up a hot water bottle full of brandy to his room one night! (my mother had refused to sleep with him because of the smell of stale booze on his breath) Once, furious with the absurd 'secrecy' of it all, my brother and I replaced one of his medicine bottles full of gin with aftershave and perfume and hid it again. When we looked a few days later my father had left a note saying 'thank you very much that burnt my mouth and throat quite nicely.' How mad is that?

Sorry, a ramble, not relevant to this thread at all.

I think the consensus is then, wish, that you ascertain if she really IS drinking as much as you fear and what she thinks about it if she is. Then act after that?

Firstly WTAAQ, I do not envy your position here - a very difficult one. I am unsure even having read through these posts what would be the best thing to do.

I would like to say that as far as facts go - a bottle of say, 14% volume wine is actually 11 units. This would take the average healthy human with a healthy liver 11 hours to pass out of their system. The general guide is 1 hour per unit.

If you are found to have alcohol in your blood whilst driving, the powers that be will not care whether you have just drunk alcohol or if it is still in your system from the night before. The end result is a years ban and a 14 week Drink Impaired Drivers Programme which you HAVE to attend. This is obviously preferrable to killing or maiming someone or yourself.

When you drink alcohol, it goes straight to the liver and is processed there before going into the blood stream (alcohol takes approx 5 minutes to reach the brain). Whilst the liver is dealing with the alcohol, it "puts off" processing food and other drink because alcohol is a poison and needs to be dealt with immediately.

If your friend is drinking heavily, it stands to reason that her food is not being processed and is in a "queue" waiting to be dealt with, meanwhile alcohol is given the priority and that is what is entering her blood stream, therefore going into her breast milk.

Does she appear to be losing weight (or infact gaining it?).

Facts are facts at the end of the day, but thinking about it, it may be a start to put a leaflet(s) through her door in secrecy to maybe give her a jolt.

Take a look at www.drinkaware.co.uk. The number they give is a 24hr helpline is 0800 917 8282. They can put you in touch with your local alcohol advice centre.

Thinking of you and wishing you all the best WTAAQ. Please let us know how you get on. x

When you put it so matter of factly Chocol8, it is chilling that someone would do this to their own child, especially a health professional.

Something has to be done - why not contact the NSPCC anonymously for advice WTAAQ??

What's happening with this wishtoask?

Rainbow, I think the NSPCC is a very good place to start! I hadn't thought of them.

Although any help agency would have problems getting info about b/f and alcohol as opposed to pregnancy and alcohol. I will make enquiries on Monday at work and see what they come up with.

Message withdrawn

The criteria we used for this at my branch of HomeStart was that if a baby at risk automatic referral. If not sure, you base on the other parent if present: if parent is all OK, no issues and takes over then no referral just monitoring. If both parents have issues (eg, alcohol, drugs, mental health, convictions) then you treat as if harm were present, ie refer. If Dad is ignoring the issue, then this is a referral.

If she's often alone with babes, also a referral: what if she fell asleep whilst BF?

I have changed my name to post this to maintain my anonymity.

WTAAQ, please confront your family member. I can totally identify with her as I am an alcoholic (in recovery for nearly 5 years). I drank when I was pregnant with my DD. She was the most wanted child ever and I wanted to be the best mother I could be. When she was born I breastfed her even though I continued to drink.

An alcoholic deludes herself that she is ok - that's what I did. I never, ever meant to cause my child any harm - I was suffering from the illness of alcoholism, was very sick and needed help. I didn't get that help until my child was 2 years old when a friend confronted me about my drinking - I thought nobody knew what I was doing.

TBH it was a relief to be confronted and to get the help I needed. I went to AA and stopped drinking and haven't needed to drink again to this day. I have a fabulous relationship with my daughter today and have had for the last 5 years.

If someone had called social services in she might have been taken away from me, which would have finished me and she would have no mother today.

This mum is really sick - she needs help, not condemnation. She needs the same compassion that would be given to a mum suffering from cancer or MS or any other illness which makes caring for a child difficult. I doubt that PND is a factor in her drinking - she drinks because she is an alcoholic - simple as that. Denial is a major factor in the illness of alcoholism, but this mum needs to be confronted - in a caring and compassionate manner.

I hope you can find the courage to confront her -I have nothing but gratitude for the person who risked my friendship to let me know she didn't like the way I was living my life.

Thanks for posting, aa. Can you say how much you were drinking and how it affected your ability to be a mother of a small child? Did you suffer from physiological ill-health while drinking?

Swings - I honestly can't remember how much I was drinking when I was breastfeeding my daughter - I suspenct around a bottle of wine a night. I fed her myself until she was 3 months. Over the next 2 years this eventually progressed to around 2 bottles or the equivalent.

To the outside world, I looked like the perfect mum. I took DD to all the mother and baby/toddler groups, she was always beautifully dressed and appeared well cared for. The reality was that some of the time I was putting loads of effort in with my DD - partly out of guilt, but mainly because I really did want to be a good mum. Of course a lot of the time I was so hung over, though I tried to make the effort I definately wasn't doing a good job. This led to more guilt that I wasn't meeting my expectations as a mother, which in turn led to heavier drinking.

I had very little patience with my DD and though I loved her, I saw her as the main cause of my problems. I went every week to my HV to get DD weighed, and HV never queried anything about me or my ability as a mother.

By the time I stopped drinking I really had a very poor relationship with DD. She didn't want me to do anything for her, only her Daddy. I was physically very weak, as I no longer ate and was always being sick.

I was just a total mess and came very close to ending my own life. I hated what I was doing but I couldn't stop drinking.

There were a few people pussyfooting around me who were obviously concerned about me but I thought I was convincing them that my dramatic weight loss was caused by the stress of looking after a demanding toddler. I needed to be confronted directly about my drinking, which is what happened in the end. I'm not saying this will work for every person who is drinking alcoholically and, of course my automatic response was to deny it, but faced with the reality of everything I got myself into recovery.

For those questioning how much and what evidence there is that the mum is drinking, I would say that anyone who is an alcoholic shouldn't be drinking anything at all. I think the fact that there are hidden bottles in the house is enough evidence. She may not be drinking enough to get her drunk yet but the illness is a progressive one, so it is only a matter of time.

Just want to say aa, how brave and honest your post comes across. Perhaps your experience will help others.

Hope so.

RW xxx

I agree with Rw, aa, you are very brave to tell us this. Thank you again. How long have you been alcohol-free now? Was the process of stopping hard? How old is your dd now? Is your relationship better?

Many thanks for you continued intrested and AA your thoughts and openness are much appreciated.

Sackache - I must respond to your points and say I am sorry but some happy, stable people do become alcoholics. They drink because they enjoy it and the feelings it gives them and then of course they need to drink. I would agree that at that stage they are no longer happy, stable people but it is a misconception that you need to be sad/low to become an alcoholic.

Also to have a quiet word would achieve nothing expect increase the level of secrecy/subterfuge involved in her behaviour. And with a real, full-on alcholic any amount of drink it too much. The fact they she managed to have a bath and drink a bottle of wine within 3 hours of entering my house was enough for me.

Anyway, an update. We have all had a very unpleasant weekend after I spoke with her HV on Friday who then visited and left lots of leaflets and information and was I feel totally ineffectual in dealing with the whole matter. However following this vist her DH managed to raise the issue with her and some close family. She is not willing however to accept that her drinking will be an issue as it is 'all under control'. She feels that she has had a few small slips over the last few weeks but it won't happen again. However her DH has been back in touch with her therapist and she is meeting with them on Wednesday. The fact that she has agreed to meet with her therapist indicates a willingness to discuss the issue perhaps. However more cynically I have the strangest feeling she may be buying herself more time.

She doesn't know that I called her HV but over the weekend I made it clear to her that I knew and whilst we all love her dearly her needs must come second to those of her new baby now and zero tolerance would be adopted by all family and friends in the event of any more little slips.

I am really unsure as to how much progress has been made TBH. But at least the matter has been discussed and all concerned are now aware of the problem.

Once again thanks for all you help.