vaccinations- mercury , aluminium and genetics

[Jimjams]

I received a paper today from Dr Bradstreet regarding mercury in vaccinaitons. I was having a browse to see whether I could find the paper on the net when I came across this. I think it is probably one of the best summaries I've read regarding MMR and autism.

Have a read:

www.ont-autism.uoguelph.ca/vax-autism-15nov02.html

Thanks Jimjams. I live in London so the Polio and BCG interest me as I think ds could have greater exposure due to having friends that travel to high risk countries, or have relatives that regularly travel... ??

Not polio really- there haven't been any cases being imported for years now. TB is a risk in some areas- but its a funny vaccine- best to read up on it (it doesn't work very well)

I didn't have them altogether. I had them all separately which meant going backwards and forwards to the baby clinic (one of the reasons the powers that be object to separate MMR because we parents can't handle the logistics!). We still haven't finished and have the third of each one to come. I was worried in the summer about going abroad (only to Italy) but the GP said it would be fine. Polio is also a problem for me as I take immunosuppresants but they didn't seem too bothered and said that, as long as I wore plastic gloves when nappy changing it would be OK, I was a bit worried though.....
Jimjams knows more about this subject and the pros and cons of live vs killed etc. Its just that my experience is a little more recent with a younger baby and ASD issues.

Hi Davros, you say you didn't have them all together. Can I ask which ones you had done first? Not sure whether to go for Polio,Hiberix and Infanrix only and leave Menjugate for a later time. I was going to try and get the three sessions done 2/3 months apart. But then I'm confused as to when to fit in the Menjugate.

ARGH this is still so confusing!

Supposed to be going to the nurse tomorrow morning, but I think I might cancel again (for the third time!)

Jimjams, did you hear the recent R4 programme on vaccinations? It wasn't about the MMR but talked about other reactions. One that interested me was a middleaged dustman who had a Hepatitis vaccine after coming into contact with a junkie's rubbish inc syringes. Within days his health started to fail and he developed severe rhumatoid arthritis - an autoimmune disease. All the experts agreed the jab either probably was the cause or could well have been the cause. Nobody said it was impossible. Which is why I find it odd that the consensus is that MMR is 'safe' - ie there is no possibility of it triggering chronic illness in a tiny number of people. Did you hear the prog and what did you think (if you can bear to think about it, of course).

Aloha- someone else mentioned it, but I missed it- I hope to catch up on the website. I've heard of a hep B arthritis link before.

I would trust the dept of health more if they were honest. To quote Nick Hornby "To paraphrase Jeremy Paxman: if the triple vaccine is safe (and I reiterate - it might be), then why are these bastards lying to us?".

I love the article that was taken from. See here:

observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,647836,00.html

Hi Davros, you say you didn't have them all together. Can I ask which ones you had done first? Not sure whether to go for Polio,Hiberix and Infanrix only and leave Menjugate for a later time. I was going to try and get the three sessions done 2/3 months apart. But then I'm confused as to when to fit in the Menjugate.

ARGH this is still so confusing!

Supposed to be going to the nurse tomorrow morning, but I think I might cancel again (for the third time!)

Jimjams can I ask you a question please?

My DH had a bit of a panic last night (hence my recent MMR postings) he is worried about the predicted measles outbreak this winter and after not being terribly worried now wants to have DS2 vaccinated (single vaccine).

Do you know if the single measles vaccine is thimerosil or available thimerosil free?

Also my DS2 had Chicken Pox about 4 1/2 months ago and wondered if if should delay the vaccination? I have read your postings about the dangers of contacting Chicken Pox just after vaccination.

Sorry for bothering you about this Jimjams but as I have just said to my DH who has just come home you are the Mumsnet oracle on vaccines. Please slap my wrists if you have answered these questions before, I can't find anything when I search.

AFAIK single measles vaccine is thimerosil free. I wouldn't panic too much about the predicted measles outbreak- they have a predicted measles outbreak every year I think the one a few years ago that was on the news a very high % (can't remember if it was slightly over or slightly below the 50% mark) had had their MMR jabs anyway. How old is your dd2? My view is that they often give meales jabs too early at the moment- especially is the mother has had measles herself. Studies indicate the vaccine tends to work better if given after 15/18 months ish- there seems to be a new trend to give it at 13 monthsish. The problem with this is that any maternal antibodies remaining will interfere and prevent the child forming activve immunity (hence the high number of mealses cases who have had MMR- if I get a chance I'll try and find the figure- I have a feeling it was 60% of cases were vaccinated and 40% were unvaccinated but I will try and check).

The chickenpox thing is all a bit of guesswork really. I want to ask someone more about this - keep meaning to but I need to find ds1's case number first and I can;t find anything in our house! Some research (not sure whether its been published or not- I think it has because I think I remember reading it when I was umming and ahhing about the MMR myself) has shown that catching mumps and chickenpox in the same year of life (naturally) significantly increases your risk of developing autism. The same research showed that catching wild measles and chickenpox in the same year also increased your risk of becomin autistic but not significantly. The autism research unit have noticed that a fair number of parents contacting them who report MMR damage have children who were unfortunate enough to catch chickenpox in the weeks surrounding their MMR. I don't think they would have any figures really for a safe period as they are not even sure that such a link exists- it's just a suspicion worth further investigation.

Sorry no straight answers- no-one knows really.

karen99, I had infanrix first as I knew that was thimerosil-free. I then found out that hiberix and menjugate were also thimerosil-free so next had a menjugate (2 weeks or a month later? can't remember) according to the gap the nurse told me to leave. THEN went back and had an Infanrix and hiberix together twice which was probably a bit dumb, then went back for the following menjugate according to the nurse's advice on the gap. NOW waiting to have the third Hiberix and Menjugate but I am one ahead on Infanrix so have finished that. The baby is now 7.5 months old but my GP said not to worry about taking my time to do it, which is partly because of the summer hols, baby had a cold and the baby clinic is on a really inconvenient day for me. I was supposed to go back today but cancelled as Tuesday is so bad and rearranged to see the nurse outside of baby clinic time. The next visit I will have Hiberix and menjugate some weeks after. I got quite confused too but feel I did an OK job of spreading things out and not rushing it and its all in the record. I can't quite remember it properly sitting here but I know when I get to the clinic its all sorted and makes sense. I didn't think to question polio (other than being worried about myself as I take immunosuppresants) and that just went down when it was offered. So, you can see what a scientist I am

Jimjams, do try to hear it. I thought it was very interesting and not at all sensational. I read the original Nick Hornby feature and thought it was heart-stoppingly good.

demented - had a quick browse and can't find any fugures for the London outbreak a few years back. I did find a review by Markowitz et al (1989) in the New England Journal od Medicine which gave a median of 60% of cases in school age children occurred in vaccinated individuals. SO that explains where my vaguely remembered 60% came from.

I''ll try to catch it Aloha - thanks. I know I love that Nick Hornby article- I never know whether to laugh or cry

Thanks for taking the time to reply Jimjams ! It is reassuring to hear that they have been predicting a measles outbreak every year, I suppose this is the first year it has really concerned us. DS2 is 17 months. According to my mum I had the measles vaccination (single) when I was a child so don't suppose I passed any immunity to him. By the sounds of the statistics you posted it sounds like DS1 (MMR vaccinated but no booster) is almost as likely to get measles as DS2, arrrrgh I don't know what to do!

Thanks Jimjams for all the info!

If you want to find out if DS1 is immune you need to ask your Dr to test his titres (sp?) or refer you to someone who will. Then you'll at least know if he's immune.

oh wouldn't worry too much demented. The immunity from the jabs can last up to twenty yearish- its just that having a jab isn't a reliable indicator of immunity in the way that catching measles is iyswim. You may still have passed some immunity across.

The figures from no. of vaccinated vs unvaccinated cases are always a bit misleading. Outbreaks have occured in fully vaccinated populations (therefore 100% vaccinated cases), so that will always push the figures up if you take the median. I guess the best way to look at it is if you are exposed to measles then you are highly likely to get it if you are not immune at that point. You are more likely to be immune if vacinated, but that is no guarantee. They've fiddled around with the age of giving MMR in the past. In the States for a while they gave it at 9 months and then again at 15 months.

The thing about your ds1 is that if he did get protection from the MMR then he is still likely to be protected, you can get blood tests done to give you an idea of current antibody status.

Thanks Davros. Cancelled the appt. as I started reading too much on the web yesterday and have scared myself about giving ds any vaccinations (will probably change mind again next week)

It's so hard to know in which order to prioritise, especially since the Hib and MenC are so new. Clearly need to speak to the nurse/hv more.. The large number of children which develop asthma after the Whooping cough jab worries me. It seems like we try to protect them from one thing, but end up giving them something else for life.

DS is due to start two days a week at the nursery in January, he'll be seven months old then. Even if I get one lot done by then he won't have great immunity, so I'm wondering to leave it a few more months when he's older.. Arrgh!

karen - Of the baby jabs- the diseases the children are most at risk from is whooping cough and hib. You already know about the problems with the pertussis jab so you just need to weigh up which you're most scared of the jab or the disease. If you are breastfeeding then it provides excellent protection against hib- each extra week provides so much extra protection.

Not trying to make your mind up- no idea what you should do just trying to clarify the risk/benefit ratio to help decide the order if you spread them out.

BTW- you can get the DT without the hib- but it contains thimerosil AFAIK. The aP- which is the pertussis component in Infanrix- is supposedly safer than the standard infant wP. Just to muddy the waters further

Sorry! I mean the DT without the pertussis. I'm just going to go and boil some sense into my brain.

Jimjams - Glad you seem to be back to your usual informative self

I know so much for not debating anymore It;s not good for me though- I really must stop

Thanks Jimjams. That does help alot. We want to stay away from thimerosil, so I think DTaP is our only option. Will have to decide on whether to get DTaP and Hib at the same time or to space them out. I'll leave MenC for a while. Still haven't managed to research that one as much as I'd like. Where does the time go???

Oh, and yes to bf. Why does that give extra protection from Hib? Cheers.

Found this
www.vaccinationnews.com/DailyNews/May2001/Breastfeeding.htm

ALso found this in "the vaccine guide"Neustaedter

"INfants who breastfeed for ....longer than 3 months have a decreased incidence of Hib meningitis.......The longer the duration of breastfeeding the lower the risk of meningitis.The risk decreases for each additional week" Slifverdal et al 1997 (international journal of epidemiology)