So uni fees are going to increase?

[nearlylovemyusername]

University sector calls on Labour to raise tuition fees to ‘stabilise the ship’ (ft.com)

Given paywall, the essence it this:

"One former university vice-chancellor said the fact that Labour had acknowledged the sector was “in crisis” indicated that Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer and Phillipson, who have not ruled out a tuition fee increase, were likely to act.

“The short-term pain of putting up fees could be blamed on the Tory inheritance . . . and then traded against a transition to a better deal for young people, which Labour can deliver before next general election,” he said."

So it won't be limited by VAT on PS, uni fees will be up, potentially significantly and repayments for higher earning grads will go up much more - this is what artical says.

Your relative is a racist, and wrong.

When we attended a recent open day at Bristol my 17year old dc given a hard sell for the course, accommodation and city. The presentations were very slick and any issues quickly glossed over. Then reminded me of estate agents selling timeshares.

Well given that my relative actually works in the system, I don't think so.

What is your experience that means you know this take is incorrect?

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/mar/12/overseas-students-undermining-uk-higher-education-warns-cleverly

One way to deal with fees and debt not being paid back is to not make student loans available to people unless they have an outside chance of working.ie by age
Student loans are given to older people who have retired. They will never work and so never pay a penny back, there is no upper age limit for the loan for those who apply for a first degree.
It is ridiculous to give a loan to someone when they will never pay anything back unless they have additional income.

@DoorPath is that at a subject level? The Graun does have a few outliers but at the overall level the top twenty in Times, CUG and Graun is the same set of unis

https://archive.ph/cZdo9

Don't be silly. I did an MA 20 years ago now and was friends with a lovely oversees student who was doing a different MA and would ask me to correct her essays for her. Her essays were short and low secondary school standard but she still somehow passed her course. I also did some ESL essay checking for a company and people often expected me to write their essay for them. I remember one brought in two incoherent sentences and expected me to make it into a passable degree level essay. Overseas students keep uni's afloat and none want a reputation for failing them.

My young relative's course is 90% international students. it is not racist to say that they complete their assignments, including online tests, together. Their English is poor as a whole so I guess this is another reason for needing a group effort. Only one online test highlighted the anomalies in a year and asked for resubmission of the entire cohort, not just those who were collaborating. But 90% of the course can't be failed.

As pps mention, the industry is now dependent on agents working abroad to bring in these profitable students. It is easy to dismiss these anecdotal reports from students actually on the courses but they are true. The universities that rely 60%+ on international students are massively exposed to the market in international students and heavily dependent on it. In return for £30-40k a year fees, the universities are increasingly providing more of an Asian-style very-high workload, very heavy exam system, which does not suit UK students, even with the teach-to-the-exam style teaching in the UK schools. Nothing will prepare you for first year exams taken in a 20,000 capacity conference centre while other universities don't even make first years take exams. Or having four assessments for just one module in term 1 of year 1. It is not a friendly or fair environment academically or socially for the UK students who are in the minority.

And for pp saying that university is a choice, sadly the UK job market makes it a necessity. Often a pointless necessity, but necessary no less.
Young relative hates the university they are at, they have 4 Astars at Alevel and worked so hard to get into a prestigious university. It would be heartbreaking to drop out. But it is hellish and miserable.
Looking for jobs though as an alternative to this godawful predicament they have been conned into - every office job that looks promising asks for a graduate. No specification of what degree, what class - just any degree, any graduate. So obviously a degree is not actually required to do these jobs, but the employers just think they need/want a graduate. They don't, but you can't get a good starting-position job without a degree, pointless though it may be.
Obviously there are exceptions, degree apprenticeships etc. Hard to get on, not widely available, geographically restrictive for those in the sticks.

I used to do private tuition years ago. The sheer numbers of people who would call me asking me to do their essays for them was astounding. I said I would help them with their essays but not do them, but they literally wanted me to do their coursework. There were so many who were from one particular university and course that I called them. They couldn't care less. They were all overseas students with poor English. It was a while ago so I don't know if the rules have been tightened up now, but it doesn't seem so. They are keeping the University sector afloat, so we either pay more, have a graduate tax or keep taking in people who can pay ££££ but aren't suitable.

That's bollocks. Unis are not allowed to make profits. 40% of the sector will be reporting losses for 2023/4.

@Toasticles I clearly work in the system.

@DoorPath but not, clearly, on a taught masters in a financially struggling uni?

My relative, btw, is of African heritage and not racist. The situation they find themself in is incredibly distressing to them, and very real.

I find it so frustrating that people would write off children gaining C/D at A level...you know that's still bloody good. They're not a walk in the park. I actually failed all mine 30+ years ago, and still managed to gain a science degree via an alternative route. My DD currently waiting an assessment for ASD has always struggled with exams, gained 3xCs (was predicted AAB) and has just finished her 1st year doing English Lit at Uni, she is thriving and is gaining 1sts in her essay assessments because she can now utilise her skills productively and creatively which is so different to passing the exams at A level.

I don’t like the idea of a graduate tax. We do not tax Brits abroad and those who studied here so how exactly would that not lead to a mass exodus of the most talented graduates? Or an incentive to study abroad or finish your final year abroad? I think they need to encourage those who can to save for uni fees for their own DC, sadly, just like in the US. Maybe a separate scheme is needed for poorer children to make it fairer.
We are basically failing Education because we want to pursue free healthcare for all, even those who could afford to contribute a bit. Lots of European countries that have a free higher education system and well funded state schooling do not have a free health service.
Our health service was never set up to fund an ever ageing population. It was never founded on that premise. Education is investment in the future tax payer. I think we are failing there. Difficult decisions and difficult times ahead.

That certainly doesn't help, but additional universities fees for home undergraduate students have not risen in line with inflation, and costs for universities have risen by more than inflation.

Note the changes the Tories made in 2020 and then unmade this year was to do with taught graduate courses for international students, which had for 4 years been a lucrative income stream for universities.

Something has to happen, as many universities are very close bankruptcy.

@Neversaygoodbye Who is writing them off? There is the rest of HE!! Which, in my opinion should be much greater so these dc can do a HND/C type qualification or foundation. As they do in art. We could have loads more HE courses that build towards degrees. Plus CDD isn’t great at A level. It’s lowish. That’s why we need a middle way that’s better.

Also, I don’t get why “teaching” is an indicator of a good uni. It might be for some degrees but DH, as an employer, finds dc need to think for themselves. They need to know how to use concepts. Pure teaching with no understanding of research and critical thinking is useless.

@boys3 Yes. Bucks has a low ranking uni. Bucks dc mostly need accommodation at uni. No one can get to uni in 10 mins on a bus!

I think degrees could be taken over 2 years. When my Dd was at Durham she was home for a month at Easter and Christmas and 3/ 4months of the summer!

Quite. My relative at the exam-heavy prestigious uni only gets max. 2 terms teaching. Term 3 is just for exams. The third term accommodation fee is largely a huge waste of money. Open book exams online (like the unis managed perfectly well with in lockdown) would eliminate the need for a whole term with just exams in it. Ditch term 3 x 3-4 years of degree and save a year of fees. Problem is then the unis are getting even less money for their degree offering, and less on the accommodation also (I guess the bills go down quite a lot in term 3 when most students aren't there much).

@TizerorFizz I'm not saying there shouldn't be other routes, I myself gained my chemistry degree through part-time study (back in the day). My point was, that some kids may not perform to their ability due to the nature of A level exams but are perfectly capable of gaining a good degree at University. The nature of study & assessment being completely different at Uni. I'm not a lover of exams as a single form of assessment.
Anyway slightly off topic.
On topic I think as previously mentioned we don't have the industries/companies we once had to sponsor the degree apprenticeship model that would be ideal. When I studied my degree there were lots of us from multiple companies and we had optional modules paid for by the company specific to their needs, so I studied a polymers module as this was useful to my employer. Too many SME that can't afford or don't want to spend the money & lose the employee one day a week for several years.

Yes, same here. When we actually looked around Bristol’s accommodation it was very old, dark and looks like it hadn’t been refurbished is 50 years! Less home from home, and more 1970s youth offenders unit!

@Neversaygoodbye Except low grades will not get them into a decent university. That’s the issue. It’s a huge expense for the taxpayer and the student - although of course it might be a free degree!

Unis that fill up with a bums on seats and via clearing need to change what they offer. I think there’s evidence that insufficiently high grades lead to more dropping out as well. Yes, a few might find a niche and excel but few achieving lower grade A levels (these days!) will go on to be high earners. There is still an earnings premium for RG uni (plus a few others) and of course, within that group, the elite unis do better. There needs to be an alternative route for the lower grade A level DC.

@RogersOrganismicProcess Keeps some prices down! My DD loved her traditional room in Wills with a fireplace! Shared bathroom too. Utterly unthinkable to some. The old accommodation is very much home to independent and boarding school dc who take such things in their stride and like a quad. Dingy buildings at most Oxford colleges too by the way! It’s the “new” money that wants expensive halls and then moan about the cost. You also didn’t look very hard. Uni of Bristol has lots of swanky new accommodation! Bristol, in most HE threads, is seen as not trying very hard to recruit. Wholly depends on course.