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General election 2024

Nope to labour

811 replies

Mrsdeehoang · 14/06/2024 21:51

I was considering voting for Labour, but their manifesto proposal to change the VAT on private education has made me reconsider. I'm not financially well-off, just about managing, and I took on two jobs to afford the fees for my son’s private grammar school. Despite our efforts, he couldn’t get a place in any of the five local state schools due to oversubscription, and our appeal was unsuccessful. We were instead assigned a school outside our area with a poor Ofsted report. Faced with this choice, I opted to work harder to provide him with a better education privately. The proposed VAT changes would make it even harder for families like mine to manage.

For me, Labour doesn’t seem to understand that not everyone who sends their children to private school is wealthy. I don’t like the Tories either, but I would rather vote for them than for Labour.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
Another76543 · 15/06/2024 09:37

izimbra · 15/06/2024 09:31

@asterel "I don’t think anyone is suggesting that “most” people who use them are an average incomes - just that some are, and it’s those people the policy will affect, not the actually wealthy. "

Any idea what percentage?

If it's only a small percentage then is it not possible for private schools to subsidise these hard up families?

25% are in families where the gross household income is equivalent to 2 parents earning average salaries.

Lopine · 15/06/2024 09:43

Another76543 · 15/06/2024 09:11

A lot of that post is factually incorrect (re business rate and gift aid position)

No, as a former business owner and charity trustee, the post is largely correct. I can’t comment on the covid loans aspect, but it is clear that private schools already enjoy significant benefits from the taxpayer and it’s reasonable to point these out.

Lillieloola · 15/06/2024 09:44

Aladdinzane · 15/06/2024 08:20

This thread is amazing.

It really, really does show how out of touch a good number of MN posters are with the rest of the country.

The GC obsessives, who have for years said " at least the Tories know what a woman is" so are prepared to overlook all the damage done to women by the Tories over the last 14 years just because they make some pandering noises to their prejudices. Thread after thread, year after year, of hyperbolic and bullying language towards trans people or anyone that might seek a slightly different approach to them, and the absolutism that this is the most important issue right now.

Most people don't think it is, in fact outside of the odd Daily Mail clickbait most people never think about it. Outside of MN, virtually no one thinks this is a major issue either politically or in terms of risks to women and children, you know why? Because it really isn't. There are far, far bigger issues for both that need fixing, and whatever the solution to the issue regarding trans rights, they aren't going to be your absolutist ones.

Also the private school parents, who for years have told MN that privately educating your child is about choices, and that they make SACRIFICES in order to send their children to private school, in a rather holier than thou way. Now there is thread after thread after thread with special pleading about why this shouldn't occur, and won't someone PLEASE think of the poor children who's parents are very ordinary and have made SACRIFICES.

The problem, is that most people have eyes. We know who privately educates their children, we have friends and family, we can see the cars at the school gates and the students they drop off. The data on who privately educates their children shows that participation rates only rise from close to zero % of children in each household income decile, once you get to the top one. In fact it only raises above one at the 90th percentile, and above 5% at the 95th. Do you know how much money you have to have to be able to get into the 90th percentile? 125k, net. This totally corresponds to what people see for themselves. There are some below this on bursaries ( but apparently 4/5 below the 90th percentile are paying full fees) but really, it isn't that many.

They don't want to pay this, so the noise they've made has been huge, like I said, special pleading, making veiled threats about migrating their children so those of ordinary folk are pushed out of good education, leaving the country, reducing their hours. All the while whinging about how HARD they worked and about how the are net tax contributors and must be treated with special privileges.

Both groups need to hear something.

Most people don't care about your issue.

All of the millions of words you've written, all of the hot air? Most people don't care. They are ambivalent at best or, in the case of the VAT on private school fees, broadly in agreement with it.

This,This,This👏👆

izimbra · 15/06/2024 09:48

"This means that 25% are in the 4th decile or below. Gross average household income in the 4th decile is around £65k per year (equivalent to both parents earning an average salary)"

From IFS report

"Unsurprisingly, private school attendance is largely concentrated at the very top of the income distribution"

Reading on:

"Our best judgement is that it would be reasonable to assume that an effective VAT rate of 15% would lead to a 3–7% reduction in private school attendance"

Given that the 20% real terms increase in school fees since 2010 (at a time of stagnating incomes and rocketing housing costs) had zero impact on private school intake, I suspect it'll likely be near the 3% end of that estimate.

If it's that crucial to parents I think they'll find a way to increase their incomes to cover the average £62 a week increase created by VAT imposition - maybe an extra half a shift at work? Of if it's 2 parents that's only £6 a day each.

I'd also suggest that private schools have a responsibility to do all they can to cut their costs in order to be able to reduce fees for families who may be unable to find the extra money.

izimbra · 15/06/2024 09:54

Sorry - got my sums wrong.

15% VAT imposition on 15K fees works out at £6.69 a day extra, or an extra £3.34 per parent per day if it's a 2 parent household.

So the cost of a coffee a day each.

Another76543 · 15/06/2024 10:13

Lopine · 15/06/2024 09:43

No, as a former business owner and charity trustee, the post is largely correct. I can’t comment on the covid loans aspect, but it is clear that private schools already enjoy significant benefits from the taxpayer and it’s reasonable to point these out.

It really isn’t!

Most state schools don’t benefit from these tax breaks”

State schools do benefit from business rate relief. Academies etc account for around 82% of state secondaries and enjoy 80% rate relief. The remainder have the rates paid for on their behalf by centralised government.

Most private schools are charities

Only around half are charities

Private schools can also benefit from being able to claim gift aid…. Donate £100,000 to your local primary school and it actually costs you £100,000,

This is incorrect. Gift aid is also available to state schools.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 15/06/2024 10:18

Love the posters who pop up with 'in my world it's just not a problem, within my group of friends it's not discussed, it's just not an issue, only on MN with the GC obsessives/transphobes/hatey people'. So insular.

There are groups of people who are and will be negatively impacted by 'the trans issue'. Just because in your sheltered privileged world it doesn't have a bearing doesn't mean women's rights to retain sex based spaces isn't an issue for many. For a governing party to be able to state simple facts and not bow down to zealot reality denying pressure is pretty important to a lot of women.

Another76543 · 15/06/2024 10:18

izimbra · 15/06/2024 09:48

"This means that 25% are in the 4th decile or below. Gross average household income in the 4th decile is around £65k per year (equivalent to both parents earning an average salary)"

From IFS report

"Unsurprisingly, private school attendance is largely concentrated at the very top of the income distribution"

Reading on:

"Our best judgement is that it would be reasonable to assume that an effective VAT rate of 15% would lead to a 3–7% reduction in private school attendance"

Given that the 20% real terms increase in school fees since 2010 (at a time of stagnating incomes and rocketing housing costs) had zero impact on private school intake, I suspect it'll likely be near the 3% end of that estimate.

If it's that crucial to parents I think they'll find a way to increase their incomes to cover the average £62 a week increase created by VAT imposition - maybe an extra half a shift at work? Of if it's 2 parents that's only £6 a day each.

I'd also suggest that private schools have a responsibility to do all they can to cut their costs in order to be able to reduce fees for families who may be unable to find the extra money.

I suspect it'll likely be near the 3% end of that estimate.

Private school numbers fell by almost 3% last year alone, so that figure is extremely likely to be higher than their estimate.

The 15% figure is the net VAT amount taking account of input VAT. There are also this year’s fee increases to consider, so the increase is likely to be around 20%.

The average private school fee is around £18k. For 2 children, it’s around an extra £7k a year. Suggesting that families save £7k a year by buying 1 less coffee a day is ridiculous .

Funkyfizz · 15/06/2024 10:28

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 15/06/2024 10:18

Love the posters who pop up with 'in my world it's just not a problem, within my group of friends it's not discussed, it's just not an issue, only on MN with the GC obsessives/transphobes/hatey people'. So insular.

There are groups of people who are and will be negatively impacted by 'the trans issue'. Just because in your sheltered privileged world it doesn't have a bearing doesn't mean women's rights to retain sex based spaces isn't an issue for many. For a governing party to be able to state simple facts and not bow down to zealot reality denying pressure is pretty important to a lot of women.

I think you will find it's mostly the sheltered and privileged who care about Trans issues. Millions of ordinary people have far more important issues to worry about, things that impact their everyday lives far more than the trans debate.

Philandbill · 15/06/2024 10:41

Aladdinzane · 15/06/2024 08:20

This thread is amazing.

It really, really does show how out of touch a good number of MN posters are with the rest of the country.

The GC obsessives, who have for years said " at least the Tories know what a woman is" so are prepared to overlook all the damage done to women by the Tories over the last 14 years just because they make some pandering noises to their prejudices. Thread after thread, year after year, of hyperbolic and bullying language towards trans people or anyone that might seek a slightly different approach to them, and the absolutism that this is the most important issue right now.

Most people don't think it is, in fact outside of the odd Daily Mail clickbait most people never think about it. Outside of MN, virtually no one thinks this is a major issue either politically or in terms of risks to women and children, you know why? Because it really isn't. There are far, far bigger issues for both that need fixing, and whatever the solution to the issue regarding trans rights, they aren't going to be your absolutist ones.

Also the private school parents, who for years have told MN that privately educating your child is about choices, and that they make SACRIFICES in order to send their children to private school, in a rather holier than thou way. Now there is thread after thread after thread with special pleading about why this shouldn't occur, and won't someone PLEASE think of the poor children who's parents are very ordinary and have made SACRIFICES.

The problem, is that most people have eyes. We know who privately educates their children, we have friends and family, we can see the cars at the school gates and the students they drop off. The data on who privately educates their children shows that participation rates only rise from close to zero % of children in each household income decile, once you get to the top one. In fact it only raises above one at the 90th percentile, and above 5% at the 95th. Do you know how much money you have to have to be able to get into the 90th percentile? 125k, net. This totally corresponds to what people see for themselves. There are some below this on bursaries ( but apparently 4/5 below the 90th percentile are paying full fees) but really, it isn't that many.

They don't want to pay this, so the noise they've made has been huge, like I said, special pleading, making veiled threats about migrating their children so those of ordinary folk are pushed out of good education, leaving the country, reducing their hours. All the while whinging about how HARD they worked and about how the are net tax contributors and must be treated with special privileges.

Both groups need to hear something.

Most people don't care about your issue.

All of the millions of words you've written, all of the hot air? Most people don't care. They are ambivalent at best or, in the case of the VAT on private school fees, broadly in agreement with it.

@Aladdinzane This. Well said.

Aladdinzane · 15/06/2024 10:41

@AccidentallyWesAnderson

It's actually the other way around, it is so incredibly privileged to think that this is such a big issue, most people have far, far more pressing issues impacting their lives. @Funkyfizz and many others have shown this.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 15/06/2024 10:43

I think you will find it's mostly the sheltered and privileged who care about Trans issues. Millions of ordinary people have far more important issues to worry about, things that impact their everyday lives far more than the trans debate.

Nah it's women at the bottom of the pile, the ones in prisons, the vulnerable rape victims now having to share spaces with men because of the 'it doesn't affect me' brigade, the ones who have spent their lives dedicated to sport to then miss out due to cheating males. I care about them (as well as the other usual issues as lots of people don't seem to be able to understand that caring about more than one issue, at the same time, is possible).

Philandbill · 15/06/2024 10:44

Another76543 · 15/06/2024 09:37

25% are in families where the gross household income is equivalent to 2 parents earning average salaries.

And do we know if the parents are paying all of the fees or are grandparents helping out or are they spending an inheritance? It's not as clear cut as you suggest.

Palomabalom · 15/06/2024 10:45

Agree OP. Labour just lack substance. All they have is a spiteful tool to appeal to voters who are salivating to see everyone brought down to the same lowest common denominator. Lib Dem for me this time!

Another76543 · 15/06/2024 10:47

Philandbill · 15/06/2024 10:44

And do we know if the parents are paying all of the fees or are grandparents helping out or are they spending an inheritance? It's not as clear cut as you suggest.

No it’s not clear cut, but it does show that not all families at private school are extremely wealthy.

Aladdinzane · 15/06/2024 10:49

@AccidentallyWesAnderson

What about the women at the bottom of the pile in the workplace who can longer get funding for employment tribunals? The women at the bottom of the pile who are using food banks whilst working just to get by? The women who have their children in crumbling schools? And on and on the list goes on.

You like to pretend you are for the women at the bottom of the pile, but really, you co-opt them for your own use, the issue you have chosen to fight for them on, very few are impacted by, they require your agency to be used on their behalf elsewhere, but you choose to make out like you are supporting them the best here.

You aren't, they're just a crutch for your prejudices.

Aladdinzane · 15/06/2024 10:52

@Another76543

Agreed it doesn't show all families using private schools are wealthy, but it does show that the vast majority are. The UCL study also clearly links those outside of this demographic to household and familial wealth rather than bursaries too.

4/5 children outside of the top decile are paying full fees, now the bursaries are way more likely to be focused towards the lower income deciles, but again it still shows that the majority of students attending have links to high incomes or wealth.

ll09sm · 15/06/2024 11:02

Another concern with labour is that they are big proponents of self ID. Even though they try and backtrack from their statements. Any dude will be able to ID as a woman with just one doctor’s note and access safe spaces for women.

Labour are actively damaging women’s safety.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 15/06/2024 11:03

Aladdinzane · 15/06/2024 10:49

@AccidentallyWesAnderson

What about the women at the bottom of the pile in the workplace who can longer get funding for employment tribunals? The women at the bottom of the pile who are using food banks whilst working just to get by? The women who have their children in crumbling schools? And on and on the list goes on.

You like to pretend you are for the women at the bottom of the pile, but really, you co-opt them for your own use, the issue you have chosen to fight for them on, very few are impacted by, they require your agency to be used on their behalf elsewhere, but you choose to make out like you are supporting them the best here.

You aren't, they're just a crutch for your prejudices.

Did you miss the bit about being able to care about more than one issue, at the same time? There's nothing prejudiced about believing in biological reality. People can present and wear what they like, but women have the right to single sex spaces. It's a huge issue for many, just before it's not for you doesn't mean it's irrelevant for others. Many can't even say it is without being shouted down and frightened of losing jobs, being cancelled etc. It's not been an issue before as there has always been a social contract, this is now being dismantled. How can one even begin to help the women you've described if men are included, or the whole concept is effectively erased. Clue - no men will ever be affected, that's the whole point. I care about ALL women (the ones with vaginas).

Aladdinzane · 15/06/2024 11:14

@AccidentallyWesAnderson

" Its a huge issue for many"

It really, really isn't. It is massively blown out of proportion by the media. Most of us have been using the same toilets ( at least) as trans people for more than a decade.

I agree women need single spaces, but, again, most people don't get anywhere near as worked up

"How can one even begin to help the women you've described if men are included, or the whole concept is effectively erased."

Women are not being erased, the hyperbole undermines you.

Go ask women at the bottom what they think their major issues are, are they men in women's sports? No. Are they getting a job that pays fairly? Yes. Are they getting housing for themselves and their kids that is adequate and not massively over priced? Or is it the tiny chance that they might have to interact with a transwoman in a single sex space once in their life?

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 15/06/2024 11:22

It really, really isn't.

It is. Just because it isn't in your world, and a few others on here, doesn't mean it isn't.

Aladdinzane · 15/06/2024 11:26

@AccidentallyWesAnderson

I bet if you surveyed just women alone and asked them to list their top 5 priorities this election, it wouldn't be there.

I'd imagine it actually wouldn't make the top 10 for most.

ghostyslovesheets · 15/06/2024 12:02

@Aladdinzane well said - I am a GC woman and a socialist - of course I think keeping women safe is important - the Tories had 14 years to do this - they haven't. It's a battle that will continue after the election - the fight goes on BUT, for me, it is not a reason to vote for a party that have made the lives of millions of women and children miserable - nope no no.

There are issues with Labour's stance - yes but do they still offer a better life for families, children and women - yes they do

This straw man of 'at least they know what a woman is' is so old - if that's the ONLY thing that matters to you - vote Tory or reform. If you care about child poverty, housing, education, women's health, wages etc - then don't.

BrigadierEtienneGerard · 15/06/2024 12:06

Well, when we get another Tory government we shall know who to blame.