Will we ever know what Labour’s policies are?

[MaryMaryVeryContrary]

Just that really, that debate was a shocker.

Are we just up shit creek without a paddle and he doesn’t have the heart to break it to us?

Yes! Set out their vision for the country based on what they actually think and try to persuade people to vote for it. Some of it might prove popular. They are both claiming they want to lead the country. Instead they yo-yo between ideas that are polled as popular which is why they appear to have no views on anything and just talk in meaningless soundbites.

Well you said yourself there’s a pool of 40,000 to fish in. More if you include all those who will allegedly be made redundant by VAT on school fees. If they’ve got any sense they’ll have been quietly researching with those people to find out what might persuade them to return so they can offer it.

I seriously doubt that many of those 40,000 are sitting around unemployed, waiting for someone to persuade them to come back. They'll have found pastures greener and have sworn never to go back. All the ones I know certainly have (dh included).

Maybe they will do their research by actually asking teachers what needs to be done. I guess there's a first time for everything.

Corbyn tried that. Most of what was in Labour's last manifesto was sensible enough - so sensible that the Tories subsequently adopted many of these ideas.

But the Conservatives saw these sensible ideas and saw Labour as a viable threat, and so rather than attack the content of the manifesto, they conducted an ad hom attack on Cobyn himself, painting him as the left-wing bogeyman. You can see certain posters on here today using almost exactly the same words used then to attack Rayner and Starmer. ("Socialist," "weak," "inexperienced", "not a leader", "danger to the country...").

Starmer knows how this works - he's an experienced lawyer who knows about the tried and tested courtroom tactics of "If you can't query the facts, query the process - and if you can't query the process, cast doubts about the facts" so he's choosing his words carefully, and choosing when to release key points about Labour's policies. It has already irritated the Conservatives, who have been forced to make up "Straw Men" Labour policies and then attempt to knock them down - e.g Sunak's made-up statements last night about Labour's supposed tax plans and falsely claiming that his "Straw Man" had come from civil servants.

I think he'd have been a lot more pragmatic about ending it quickly if he hadn't had Boris the cheerleader in his corner urging him to fight on. Boris, who was then ousted from power a few months later.

Tbh I don’t think people want either.

I want the NHS permanently divorced from politics

Labour is in the lead and Starmer has been told not to blow it by saying anything. He is surprisingly bad at public speaking and arguing a point (probably because he doesn’t have any good points to argue) for an ‘experienced lawyer’ and Labour don’t want to lose their advantage. Sunak is no better. Despite his experience of working in finance he was was a surprisingly bad chancellor. I don’t know who to vote for.

Why do people so often think that making a particular criticism of one party means you're defending or supporting another party (on that same issue, or in general)? It's perfectly possible to think they're all a bunch of useless arses, and nobody is obliged to add 'Oh and the other party are shit at that as well' every time they make a negative remark about one of them.

Rather than the 2.5 billion sending 18 year olds into the armed forces, maybe thinking outside the box (ahem) we could provide the apprenticeships needed to deliver the green energy solutions. There was a program a few months ago about heat pumps saying they desperately need to train engineers to deliver and fit them.

I also would like to see these apprenticeships (and all other jobs for youngsters) paid properly, it's disgusting that they are paid £6.40/hr - how can they leave home to start an apprenticeship on that money, completely impossible. When I left school I knew people who'd moved from Liverpool to London to do an apprenticeship with British Airways at 16, fat chance of doing that now - they couldn't even afford a room in a shared house on the money they're paid.

I think if you watch again you will see that Starmer failed to say how he would achieve his aims

This

Some of Corbyns policies were batshit, although there were some good ideas in there as well.

His level of spending was also ridiculous. If he had got in before covid and managed to spend that amount of money before covid we would have been completely screwed now with the extra on the national debt.

There was a lot of speculation that the spending proposed by Corbyn was so high that the economy would have had difficulty absorbing it. Like throwing buckets of water onto an already soaked sponge.

; maybe not after today

Just seen the news 😬 Vaughan Gething saying that it wasn't for keeps and he's not giving up his marble.

Not surprising that he lost the vote of no confidence.
Just surprised he wasn’t made to stand down before.

[Corbyn's] level of spending was also ridiculous. If he had got in before covid and managed to spend that amount of money before covid we would have been completely screwed now with the extra on the national debt.

The level of the national debt is the highest that it has ever been - both in real terms and as a percentage of GDP. The Conservatives have spent money like it was water (and saved money where it actually should have been spent) with very little to show for it. What looks good on a spreadsheet has not often translated to any benefits for the country. As an example, the £25 billion paid for Trace and Track, when other countries did it for a fraction of the cost (e.g. Germany £110m - UK £25,000m)

Hunt (a PPE graduate), Kwarteng (academic historian) and Sunak (money shuffler) knew next to nothing about running a business, let a lone running the finances of a country.

The reality facing the UK is that after years of underinvestment (i.e. failing to fix the roof while there was money in the bank and the sun was shining) the UK is in serious economic and social trouble. The rich have more money than they know what to do with, while the number of poor continues to increase, and in real terms they are as poor, if not poorer now than they were 14 years ago. There are huge differences between the lives led by the rich (including the man who is £122 million better off today than he was this time last year) and the poor; between the different regions of the UK; and between the skilled and educated and those with no skills or with skills that are no longer economically in demand.

To repair the damage will take a decade or more, but nobody (politicians, voters, the media) will face up to the reality of the situation, preferring to focus on immigrants and lanyards

That sums up my thoughts exactly (and much more eloquently!)

It's woeful and weak.

I would be spamming with clear messages everywhere and my polices.

Costing and everything

Quite. Especially when the last Tory government was elected on the basis of one ( possibly 2) soundbytes- 'get Brexit done' and 'Oven ready deal'. Neither of which have been delivered. Our decline in the last 10 or so years since the end of the coalition government has been staggering.

‘Ffs’ critiquing labour isn’t synonymous with being a Tory or a ‘Tory apologist’.

If you think Labour should be beyond reproach, and that any admission that they’re less than perfect makes the commentator a conservative stooge, then you’re as bad as them tbh. I have no time for tribal, unintelligent, slanderous hysteria when it comes to politics.

Also agree that no politician wants to tell the electorate the truth because the electorate don’t want to hear it. Regardless of party.

Most under 18s wouldn’t leave home to start an apprenticeship. £6.40 is their rate, then it increases. Unlike university where students have to pay to learn, apprentices are paid. That’s why competition is fierce for good apprenticeships. Most students, even when they study away from home, still have their base there.

Older apprentices get more, over 21s get NMW £11.44 p/h.

@Seymour5 Yes I have one DC at Uni and one in 6th form, who might be interested in an apprenticeship but we live in a market town and there's nothing on offer anywhere near us. I stand by my statement that £6.40/hr is too low - I don't think they should have different minimum wages for under 21s, it's ageist. I left school at 18 in 1989 and was earning £10K doing 1 day a week in college to get a degree after 6 years, I accept that was a good salary for the time, but it also clearly shows how salaries haven't risen as they should.

Most under 18s wouldn’t leave home to start an apprenticeship.

Not unless their families subsidised them, no, because they couldn't afford to.

If you're a young person who lives in a place where there are no suitable apprenticeships within reach by public transport, you're screwed.

So why have you taken on the trope of so many Tories?

One reason Labour doesn't want to jump the gun is that the Tories so often simply steal their policies - eg the non-doms tax in recent history.