Desperately need some screening advice

[cakeycakeface]

We've just lost a planning decision that went to committee. We now face having two very large double storey buildings being built parallel and directly in front of us. All our public rooms face into them as well as one bedroom. Our home is an old bungalow on an elevated position which means their top floor windows and glazed fronts will have views into our home. We know this because the neighbour already has these views.

We need screening, and really fast, and I expect it will be costly. We don't want a leylandi (sp?) hedge, because we're going to have to look at this everyday and I'm not a fan of them. A mixture of trees and shrubs and hedging. I'm going to have to let go my dream of bedding borders!

We'd need to try plant immediately for a height that can screen the windows. It's going to be hard, these buildings are massive and very ugly.

And yes, we're also thinking of moving, but we'd have to screen anyway to sell the house.

I would really appreciate some advice. I'm feeling very low about it and need to try focus forwards.

I am not sure yet about the tree, cakey! I was looking at the columnar cherries. But I think I will hold off making a decision until I've finished some work in the house. I've been going outside and squatting in my garden (the neighbours have been giving me funny looks) to see what it will look like from the angle I'm likely to have once building work is finished. But alas, alas, my thighs are not as strong as they should be and the warehouse is not yet completely up and I have no exact idea what the floor height will be, so all I have actually achieved is the appearance of being a lunatic!!

I quite like your wiring plan - I am a big fan of masses of climbers and there are loads that would work to give you year-round screening! The issues I can see are these:

• how will you cut the back of the beech, especially as it grows up to be taller than the fence?
• how will you mount the wires so they are strong enough (large climbers can be quite a weight, and you may have to think about quite an industrial solution)
• is there much point putting wires/climbers right along if you are also going to have trees and bunts? (How will the shade cast by these affect your climbers?)

Columnar cherry sound lovely. I googled for images (see attached) and saw this .... a group of them together is quite effective. At the nursery we visited I spotted this in the second picture - a Prunus something-or-other (I'm horrendous at remembering plant names) - and I thought the branches seemed to also provide a bit of screening even when they were leafless.

I'm starting to gather together thoughts on plants. (DH is going to have to help out with the names I've forgotten).

We visited a nursery that supplies trees and thankfully had a lot of help from the guy who runs it. He knows our area well.

He has strongly discouraged us from Photina Red Robin, which I am disappointed about.

He said laurel was not a good idea for screening, even in a copse. In his opinion it gets scraggy and gappy. Do you agree? I was hoping for a mix of foliage forms.

He wasn't sure about mixing normal beech and copper beech. He said copper was slower to grow. Although he seemed more open to it when we said we weren't planting a hedge, more a copse.

He warned us against yew - said the berries were poisonous. I was thinking of trying some kind of topiary thing (accepting it will take a very long time to grow). But I'm now not sure it's a good idea with kids...?

I spotted a Tsuga while at the nursery. What are your thoughts on this? It was about 3m high and I liked the softness of its foliage. I know they are ultimately massive because we saw one at the botanics. Can it be controlled?

And seen at the botanics - Abies homolepis. Amazing cones (see pic). But I can't find any info on it on the RHS site, so know nothing more than that.

On the shrub side of things, berberis at the Botanics is higher than I thought (but everything seems large at the botanics!!). Is this unusually large? I had berberis in my previous garden and it seemed very attractive to insects. I thought, if it was of a good size, it might be nice to include towards the front? The RHS has Berberis valdiviana at hardiness H4. I think we'd need to be looking for something at H6 minimum. I have no idea how our previous berberis survived given temperatures sometimes dropped to -20 at our previous home.

Finally - Fargesia nitida - I know, I know ... and DH isn't sure either. But, again, I saw a Fargesia at the Botanical Gardens and thought it an impressive screen and a really good height. I quite liked the droopy horse-tail effect of its blades. Not entirely sure how it could be used though.

There are other plants on the list. DH is starting a spreadsheet so I'll have to pick his brains.

Oh, and what are your thoughts on Parrotia persica? I stumbled across this online.

Photinia red robin - why did he discourage you from having this ? I don't have it because I don't like it but I'm curious .

I have a large laurel ( about 4m X 4m) for screening from the wind and it's not at all gappy. But you have to keep trimming it when it's younger, like a hedge. It's not the most beautiful of plants but it does the job well .

I also have yew, but my youngest child is 9 so old enough not to eat the berries which are indeed v poisonous ( as is the sap ) .

Conifers - you can only control the type that can be cut back regularly , like the dreaded leylandii , which actually makes a very good hedge .

Hardiness - according to Ken cox, a very well know Scottish plants person ,

H5 is hardy in all of Scotland

H4 -5 is hardly in almost all of Scotland - borders, highlands , inland river valleys amd mountains. Some cosmetic damage in extreme winters, sudden cold snaps and late spring frosts

H4 is hardly in most eastern gardens near the coast or on hillsides , Perth, S Edinburgh , Dundee, Aberdeen,Inverness . May not be reliably hardly in cold inland gardens

But of course there are all the usual considerations of coldness, wind exposure and drainage , frost pockets, micro climates , wind shelter and shade, soil and rainfall .

Ideally you want to buy plants that have been grown locally or somewhere colder than you .

I'm glad you went to the botanics so you could see how they use layers of trees, then large and more ornamental shrubs to give good screening from a busy road .

But also it's interesting to see how much depth you need to do the job properly . And how it looks like a beautiful garden and not like a boring hedge

Berberis are mostly H5 and pretty tough . They don't mind being cut back, although you have to be careful not to spoil the shape of the arching ones like Berberis superba . B Darwinii is evergreen with orange flowers now and black berries

That parrotia persica is beautiful, but Ken says they are best in a sheltered area as the early flowers and foliage are vulnerable to frost :-( . Maybe you could grow it once your shelter belt is established?

I've got Ken Cox's book on fruit and veg for Scotland, kr1stina. Are you referring to another of his? Maybe I should head out and buy it. DH is suggesting we head up to Ken Cox's nursery tomorrow! And we should also consider visiting Dawyck botanics.

Yes, to the botanics and depth required. Thanks for the suggestion. I was already aware of this layering approach because my parents have managed unbelievable screening of their house with a combination of trees, shrubs and creepers. Bougainvillea scrambling through tall trees. Spectacular. Different country, different climate though! And more space.

When we moved here that's what I had in mind for screening the existing houses. But the depth required is my big concern in this area of my garden. That's partly why I'm being sidetracked into thoughts of tall bamboo and creepers along the top of the fence. And why the bund is essential. We have an acre plot, but the garden is wrapped around the house.

The tree man seemed to think we were too exposed for Photinia here - wind especially. I don't think it is as exposed as he thinks, but I possibly haven't seen the worst of the weather yet. We're still new to the area. Photinia is also more expensive than other plants so I don't want to risk it. I'd rather get more of something else just now and experiment later. When we first moved here DH expected us to be blasted by the elements but has been pleasantly surprised.

One fortunate thing for us is, regardless of what we plant in this area, we do not have big worries about extra shade. Shadows will mostly be over the fence on the road and maybe the neighbours except perhaps late afternoon heading towards evening. So everything planted forward of the 'hedge' will still get sun most of the day.

I have this

www.amazon.co.uk/Garden-Plants-Scotland-Kenneth-Cox/dp/0711236682/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1461431888&sr=8-1&keywords=Garden+plants+for+Scotland

Only the 2008 edition, I didn't know until now that it had been reprinted ( presumably updated) .

I wish I was going to Glendoick tomorrow , but I suspect you might be a few weeks early to see the best of the rhododendrons and azaleas .

Dawyck is wonderful but mostly super huge trees so not so directly relevant to your average garden . But a great day out ( take decent shoes , lost of walking up hills ) .

Glad to hear that shade is not an issue for you .

I have a very exposed garden but in the west , inland , 500 ft up. Not bad for frost but the wind is a problem . There's a long list of things that supposedly work in a windy garden that have not done well for me .

The more sheltered bits of my garden are getting over crowded with the refugees from the exposed bits . This winters victims have been two Hebe Red Edge ( dead ) and Abelia grandiflora Francis Mason ( begging to be moved ) .

I've not had much to update on this thread because everything is taking a lot longer than we thought. But last weekend the soil pile was finally levelled. No lawn there yet but a sense of space.

Unfortunately all the soil was used for backfilling to level the lawn and we'll need more to build the bunds. The groundwork guy who did our levelling will give us top quality topsoil when he does another job in about a weeks time, and then we'll build the bunds. So that's good.

The bad news ... someone has lodged a complaint about our wall (I suspect the neighbours across the road) and we've received a letter from planning. We need to get in touch with them. Feeling very shaken and not sure how to approach planning now.

Sad to hear that cakeycakeface. Any updates to share with us?

No, nothing. The letter arrived today. We need to make contact with planning early next week.

Looking at the fence on our side we can see tips of the beech hedge (on the neighbours side, which will ultimately cover the fence) peeping over the top of the fence. So if we're told to reduce the height of the fence it will be farcical, unless we're told to reduce the hedge too, and told we can't plant trees, etc etc.

DH and I are so exhausted by the whole planning experience. We've decided to not let it get to us this time. We'll go through the absurd process and apply for retrospective planning permission if we're told to do that. If successful, good. If unsuccessful, we'll move.

If unsuccessful, it will mean that the system has robbed us of our privacy and visual amenity, and then also denied us any recourse to addressing it.

What's interesting to me is the way an early bad planning decision is snowballing into more and more decisions all of which are upsetting a community. We mentioned the letter to neighbours in the original settlement (some of who also have high faces), and they are absolutely disgusted by whoever has done this. More divisions between 'us' and 'them': the original village and the big houses that have undermined its charm.

The neighbours (we think) are miffed that our fence cuts a little across the view they enjoy across our garden. They don't know yet that we also plan to plant screening trees, in our garden, so that will really enrage them when it happens. Given that they have already made comments about the height of our leylandii hedge opposite them, I don't think I can stomach fight after fight over years to come.

... And here is another spin-off curiously of planning's mistake (and I can't believe I'm even saying this), but we could potentially subdivide our garden into three plots. It would require moving the drive to go with our house (which would be the main plot) to just across from the neighbours house.

The developer building these very big houses opposite us has already approached us about buying land from us for another house, so there's a potential buyer lined up.

A few months ago this would have seemed immoral to me, ruining a lovely old house and garden. It still think it's an absolute shame, but now I'm feeling no-one values it except us, and no one is really concerned about our quality of life. Our loyalty to the past is doing us no favours. And I suspect planning are under pressure to find plots - and we are sitting on the potential of the only two in the village that remain. They clearly don't care about the character of the village, so we'd most likely be successful.

There's a cynical part of me that even wonders if they factored squeezing us out of our home into their decision-making process. Funny how they are pursuing the height of a fence that isn't even a boundary between neighbours, but successive planners failed to notice an entire woodland going missing..?!

We want a quiet private rural life, and this house may ultimately be the financial means to find it elsewhere.

Ironically, our neighbour will find 'their' view obstructed not by a hedge, but by a double garage and driveway with cars instead.

OK, deep breath!

It must be terribly upsetting to have received a complaint. But just because you have doesn't necessarily mean that it'll be upheld. In fact I suspect there's a good chance it won't be with the hedge already in situ. But the good thing about this situation is that you DO have the hedge there, so there is a fallback in the worst case scenario. If the fence comes down, you just thicken and build up the hedge - high and impenetrable can easily be achieved with the right plants and climbers.

I don't think that the planners can stop you planting trees either! (I think this might have been mentioned once or twice before ). So you can still have your bunds too, for sure. Neighbours can gnash their teeth all they like, but it's your right to plant trees!

I would wait and see how this all plays out before you make any major decisions about the house. It may be that you don't need to do anything about the fence and that once the trees are in, you feel a lot more sheltered and protected and things settle down. It's good that you have a fallback plan with subdividing and selling the plot, but it's a major decision and not one to rush into.

I highly doubt planning are in a conspiracy to force you to sell your land. It's more likely they are under pressure to increase the numbers of houses in the overall area, though that would play into your hands were you to sell part of your garden. As you've said before, the basic problem here is not so much with new housing but the design of it - a less imposing frontage with windows facing in a more discrete direction might well have reduced the impact on you and your family. It's a shame they allowed such a level of overlooking and intrusion.

Thanks Holly. DH spoke to the enforcement person who was going to speak to the planner. The enforcement woman said it sounded tricky but it sounds as if the height change on their side will be a factor.

There will be three houses affected by our fence/hedge - two of them still to be built. Our house is the last in a cul de sac. So the wider public will be oblivious it exists. The fence and wall also steps down following the slope of the land to its lowest point in front of the objecting neighbour.

DH estimates it is now only 30cm higher on their side than the original fence height. I'm really amazed someone would do this over 30cm?!

The developer of the new houses (which face the highest fence height) indicated he was OK with what we'd done, and he actually gave us the topsoil to level the lawn. DH is going to speak to him again to be sure.

I hope planning will only focus on who is directly affected, because we have a suspicion the neighbours in the big houses might have had one of their 'committee' meetings. DH said some of the other neighbours have been wandering down to have a look. They have no reason to be at this end of the road at all. So...we're expecting objections from them all if we need retrospective planning permission.

But I have to say, just having that extra height with the level lawn has transformed our experience of the garden at one end.

Previously, the objecting neighbours had clear visibility over the whole garden. Not anymore. DH said he feels so much more comfortable being in the garden now. So do I. If I even strolled around previously I was aware I was probably being watched. It really makes a difference to quality of life.

Obviously directly in front of they still have clear views into our garden, but that's where trees will have to be planted.

It sounds like the whole situation has become horribly politicized across your village, which (of course) is a really stressful place to be with your neighbours. An us/them situation can be very corrosive. I'm sorry you're at the sharp end of this - you sound like a woman who is fed up to the teeth and who has really had enough to deal with already!

If the system in Scotland is anything like the English one, there will be distinct rules about where to measure from/to to calculate the permitted height with fences. What will matter is the spatial context and the height, and how strict the planner wants to be - not really the developer or the objector's viewpoint. I have no idea whether the same is true in Scotland. What is quite weird, however, is that you could put in exactly the same height of hedge and not have a problem. (I put this down to the vagaries of the planning system. A bit like how you have to get major layers of planning to put in a dormer window in the Peak District, but a mining company has permission to blast away half a hillside).

What I find strange about this whole thing is that the hedge is on your neighbour's side, right? And it's about as tall as the fence? Even if it's a bit thin now, in a few years, it could well be higher than your fence and thicker. So even if an objection is upheld, it's not really going to change anything spatially. I would hope a sensible planner would see that.

Where you have rules, though, you always have different interpretations of them! So I appreciate it probably feels like you're right in the middle of uncertainty again. I know that can feel quite stressful. I'm in a situation at the moment where I have a planning application in for an extension that is about 15cm higher than I could do under permitted development without needing any PP at all, and am waiting to see what they decide. (The 15cm lets us keep the same ceiling height throughout). Whatever the ruling, we will work with it. There are always ways around things and compromises that you can make, and there are for your case too. If you can't have a fence, it will be super annoying, but you can have a hedge and bunts!

Good luck with your application. To deny 15cm extra height would be really odd when you have a sensible justification for it.

You are correct, the hedge would be on their side. Problem is, I don't think they want anything there because it blocks their view across our garden. That's the issue.

I've decided just in front of them, in our garden, would be a good spot for a cluster of white birch trees!

Isn't there a 'high hedges act' though, that can limit heights of hedges?

Hahahahaha! Go for it. I do love those white birches and they do look better en masse!

If I'm right, they can't stop you having a hedge. I'd be out planting all sorts of honeysuckle and ivy and rambling roses through it to bulk it out!!

How do you do that? I mean, plant all sorts of things through it to thicken it up? At the moment we have a few good sized shrubs but the original owner spiced them far apart, so we've filled in with smaller ones. I can't visualise where/ we'd space in other plants. I'd love a rambling tumbling hedge though - a 'hedgerow' rather than hedge.

I have no idea about plants and trees, but I have read this with horror and anger! You poor things. Last year we had a hedge cut down and replaced with a fence between us and our (actually very lovely but not the point) neighbours and even that left me feeling miserable for months, not wanting to go into the garden. Being overlooked is horrible especially when you have bought a non-overlooked house.

I really do feel for you. Can you get some V shaped trees to do a nice Up Yours within this planting?!

There is a high hedges act, but it's much harder to enforce than the fencing, because it doesn't fall so directly under planning. The legislation for Scotland is here: www.gov.scot/Resource/0044/00445025.pdf A high hedge is defined as one that is both over 2 metres in height and that cuts out light (evergreen plants are more likely to do this than deciduous ones, something that is more explicit in English legislation). In order to bring a case, neighbours have to show that they've tried to talk to you about the hedge, or tried mediation - only then can they take it to the council, and they have to pay a fee (in some cases, quite substantial).

The guidance for England says: 'Local planning authorities should also consider using conditions to control future alterations to
buildings that might affect the privacy of neighbours. For example, adding or enlarging windows or converting a flat-roofed extension to a first floor balcony or roof garden. Such changes might cause neighbours to grow a high hedge to prevent being overlooked. Although these minor alterations can usually be made without the need to apply for separate planning permission, these rights may be restricted or removed where the local planning authority consider it necessary or reasonable to do so by attaching a suitable condition to the original planning permission.' The second part of this applies to the granting of planning permission - but the first part makes it sound to me like the fact that you are now overlooked would be considered when looking at this hedge.

It also says that people can consider landscaping their gardens to carefully position tall plants to prevent overlooking, i.e. BUNTS ARE GO!

Oh, and given that you have lots of shrubs of different heights at your boundary - do bear in mind that the Scottish documents say that a line of trees doesn't necessarily even count as a hedge, even if the canopies touch! So the hedging legislation wouldn't apply in that case.

And yes, I'd just plant lots of things through to thicken it. Honeysuckle, dog roses, ivy will all encourage birds and bees and butterflies - and if any parts look a bit gappy, you can plant something large like a viburnum in front as part of a border!

paradise And thanks for the sympathy. It has been very very tough. Not just our garden, but views into all our public rooms too.

Reading that, Holly, do you think it's possible that our row of clumps/copse's' could be interpreted to be a hedge? The clusters of trees will be fairly close to each other to create a screen

I note the 2m height would possibly include the bund (which will be about 1m high).

I also wonder about the definition of blocking sunlight?

Guidance on sunlight here (for building houses) is that 18m is sufficient. And a house is much taller than a 2m tree. Our leylandii hedge - a small strip planted by previous owner' - will be well over 2m before we level it off (for privacy), but it is also more than 18 away from the neighbours.

I think a copse is definitely NOT a hedge! Nor is a spinney or any other clump of trees. I think a hedge has to be really linear and regularly planted. If you go back to those screening examples that were posted earlier in the thread (the company website, I mean) - these have been used precisely because they won't be defined as hedging.

I think they would also struggle to define any kind of high border planting (e.g. strategically placed tree-height shrubs with flowers in front) as a hedge. I have an 8ft viburnum in my garden and a 14ft apple tree. They aren't next to each other, and no-one in their right mind would call them a hedge!