Desperately need some screening advice

[cakeycakeface]

We've just lost a planning decision that went to committee. We now face having two very large double storey buildings being built parallel and directly in front of us. All our public rooms face into them as well as one bedroom. Our home is an old bungalow on an elevated position which means their top floor windows and glazed fronts will have views into our home. We know this because the neighbour already has these views.

We need screening, and really fast, and I expect it will be costly. We don't want a leylandi (sp?) hedge, because we're going to have to look at this everyday and I'm not a fan of them. A mixture of trees and shrubs and hedging. I'm going to have to let go my dream of bedding borders!

We'd need to try plant immediately for a height that can screen the windows. It's going to be hard, these buildings are massive and very ugly.

And yes, we're also thinking of moving, but we'd have to screen anyway to sell the house.

I would really appreciate some advice. I'm feeling very low about it and need to try focus forwards.

That was really a great post Holly! I am focussing forward now -- but with a recent setback, unfortunately.

Most of the wall has been built and the fence posts are in place giving us a sense of the final height. I went and stood on the road side, facing the wall and fence and it isn't as high as I expected it would be. This is to gauge impact from new neighbour's perspective. Also, I can see now that the beech hedging which is already there is already the same height as the 'new' fence height, and we'll put in more plants to thicken it out. On our side it will look like a normal fence height. On the neighbour's it will eventually be a beech hedge.

However, our neighbours in the house diagonally opposite (which already has a massive impact on us) haven't reacted well. This is despite the fact the fence is stepped down in front of their house. The builders came and told us they were out with cameras photographing and videoing the work. I honestly cannot begin to tell you what that did to my anxiety levels. It feels as if everyone is conspiring against us having a normal happy private life. Melodramatic I know, but I just want my life back without stress.

DH went across and spoke to them immediately. Their main concern is a downstairs spare room which I know they don't use because I can see into all the rooms of their house no matter where I am in my own. The fence will be higher than that window, they think. This is because it will be maybe 50cm (max. maybe less) higher with the new ground level at that point, but also because their house is set lower down the slope. I suspect it always was relatively high given their angle of perspective anyway. DH told them we'd be planting hedging to cover the fence, which he said they seemed to accept.

They also said they didn't want to make us anxious But why would they ostentatiously be taking photos if that was the case? Why do that if you aren't gathering 'evidence' ? The builders weren't impressed about being filmed - apparently called out to them while they were doing it - and I don't think it's polite to film someone else's house without consent either, frankly. It feels like quite an aggressive thing to do.

They also asked DH if we would reduce the height of our leylandii hedging at some point which the previous owner put in to screen their house. This is on an area untouched by what we 'real doing. So I feel as if they're establishing future objections about an issue not even there yet. This is in our garden and is only just above fence height, so not even remotely tall yet ( not even a standard hedge height yet) and there are MASSIVE tall trees behind it. Because we're above them, we'll have to let that leylandii get tall enough so we cant see over it into their home. From their perspective it might look higher, because they are looking back up from a lower perspective. But the hedge will never ever be as high as the trees behind it! Makes me wonder if the next thing will be to ask us to remove those too.

I really don't understand this. The only view we're taking from them, is the view of our house ...! Why would anyone prefer looking into someone's private space rather than greenery and foliage? I have literally seen their daughters getting undressed in their bedrooms! It baffles me that they are not concerned by that? The builders have constantly been saying to us that the neighbours must be relieved we're doing this because it will help them .... but it appears not.

Since we started this I've been paying closer attention to fence and hedge heights around us. I suspect, for example, that our neighbour's back fence is a little like our 'new' fence, in that it is 1.8m tall but on an elevated position near the main road (so having the effect of being higher). If ours is illegal, then so are many others. Our fence is still exactly the same height, but on a new ground level.

All the houses here seem to have fence heights of about 1.8m and a lot of hedges higher than that. I just wonder, if our neighbours decide to take issue, if planning will consider that others in the area have tall hedges and fences or if they will treat us differently.

I didn't sleep last night. Again. aaaaaargh!!!

Sorry about the strikeout through that - I have no idea how that happened!

OK, leaving aside the emotional stuff (!! I know this is impossible, but bear with me) I don't think people have much of a say on the height of trees. Hedges, yes, but trees, no. I don't think there's much anyone can do to stop you planting trees or to enforce removal if they just happen not to like them. They can take as many pictures as they want, but that doesn't mean there is anything they can do in practice. This is partly why the idea of planted knolls rather than a row of hedging is a good one. It is more subtle, less impactful on them and it will eventually achieve the same objective. I'm afraid that, just as you are finding a way of living in closer proximity with them, they will have to make adjustments too.

The heights for fencing and for hedges are different too I think. Fences can be 2m high without planning, unless adjoining a highway where it's 1m. Hedging can go higher than this and you have to show a really huge impact under the hedgerow regulations to get em cut down.

I think it's the ground level at which the fence starts that "counts" for measuring purposes, though that's not an expert opinion, so do check. I have a similar issue with an extension: the neighbour's property is downhill from ours a little so it will be higher their side than ours, but it's ours that counts for measuring purposes (also we are lucky in that our neighbours are absolutely wonderful about the whole thing and are actually excitd about it for us, even though I am sure they are going to be very inconvenienced by it. We owe them a big bottle of wine!!).

You've pretty much unpicked my logic in our approach so far.

You are correct, fence height is measured from the ground it is on. This is why I insisted the fence was placed on our side of the wall on the new level. I'm not sure what fence height rules are in Scotland despite trying to figure it out, mainly because what I am reading doesn't seem to be supported in practice at all. The legislation says if it fronts a road a fence can be no more than 1m high. It doesn't distinguish between types of roads, and in practice that really doesn't seem to be the case. Most houses have fences of 1.8m or hedges even higher along roads. Our neighbour has a fence 1.8m high fronting a proper highway. 2/3 of the length of our fence will front onto a private road and 1/3 onto the end of a road owned by the council. This is at the end of a cul de sac so no interference with traffic safety.

Our hedges and fence shouldn't interfere with light. The landscape consultation for the new developments recommended 'meaningful screening' and said this would be 4m away from the house so wouldn't interfere with the enjoyment of the property. Our neighbours house is alongside these and the distance between their property and our fence is much greater than 4m.

However, I am concerned by our garden level now. Legislation for decking etc requires planning permission for decking higher than 300cm. We've raised part of our garden by up to 1m approximately. It honestly didn't even occur to me this might be a concern, and I'm now worried it might be.

However, a bit of further reading suggests these rules are about 'overlooking' issues. We're doing all this to prevent overlooking and preserve privacy to all parties.

I'm really worried now. My perception of planning is they can be very unreasonable.

The issue with planning is they chose not to make screening a condition of development.

We believe this was strategic, to give the committee the impression privacy and visual amenity were a 'non-issue' for us, therefore screening was not required. This decision was a departure from consent granted for other recent development.

My worry is they may do the same for us now, as a form of obstinately refusing to see the problem they've created. I suppose we could head them off by cutting our fence down by a metre, and replacing it with trellis or wires and grow creeper across. But would this be included in the height of the fence?

I wish I could contact planning and clear things up but I really don't trust them anymore. I honestly believe their approach with this development has been to try conceal bad historical decisions.

I am no expert on this, but you're right that there is a gap between practice and the rules down a lot of streets! I suspect it's quite contextual in reality - that a fence that feels like it's round the side or back of a property might well be tolerated whereas if someone were to put up a 2 metre run of panels in a street where the vernacular is low brick walls and openness then it might be challenged. Since the norm where you are is high, then maybe you don't need to worry? (I'm hoping someone with planning experience will come and give you more weighty and expert advice!!)

Am I right that you are planting a hedge AND having a fence? If that is the case, I think it might be a bit academic, because the hedge will soon be at the height of the fence, if not above it, right - so you won't even see the fence for greenery?

I guess what I'm trying to say, more generally, is that there may not be a problem here. So please try not to worry. I know this is about a million times easier to say than to do, though! I know that when something upsetting happens to me, everything that is connected with it seems fraught and exhausting and devastating!

But there is no reason to assume that there is any massive problem here. Just because the neighbours are having a bit of a strop doesn't mean you've done anything wrong or that the planners will agree wit them. Even if there is a minor issue, it will be something you can handle. You ARE going to get screening, whether it's via trees or a deep, dense border or via hedging or a combination of all three! By hook or by crook, you WILL be there in the end .

You're a star holly. One of the things I'm planning on doing since the neighbours have given me a heads-up that we'll be having future issues over the leylandii hedge, is to plant some trees just inside in front of it quite soon. Then, if I obligingly take it down in the future, they can look at more trees instead. They are not going to be looking into my house!

Attagirl, that's the spirit! . And it's going to be lovely when it's done. I am WEL JEL - I would love to be able to do the kind of screening you are doing - it will feel so leafy! Sadly, I just don't have enough width to my garden to get away with anything of the kind. Maybe when I win the lottery...

Only problem is that nothing will grow just in front of the leylandii because they take all the food and water and they cast a dense shade.

Sorry to mention this but I didn't want you spending time and money buying and planting things that won't thrive.

Just a bit of planning advice... The 2m goes from original ground level, so if you're building up the ground by 1m then sticking a 2m fence on top then it needs permission. Yes, there will be fences taller than this, they may have permission or they've just never been reported.

That's very worrying wildidle. I've searched and searched and can find nothing expanding on that. Can you direct me to the source of your information? We're in Scotland and this is the information I have and our council's very brief guidance seems to be based on this.

See 4.119 - When measuring the height of the development on sloping or uneven ground, the height should be measured from the lowest point immediately adjacent to the gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure.

www.gov.scot/Publications/2012/02/9140/5/3/5

Are the fences up yet? If they are, I would be tempted to wait and see if there is an objection. There may not be, after all! Sometimes not moving to 'solve' something can be the best course of action!

If the fences aren't already up, then there are more cost implications, and I would seek advice - I realise you've lost all trust in the planners and probably the last thing you want right now is to have to interact with them. However, in practical terms, they will be the ones adjudicating on your fencing if it does become contentious.

Is there a reason you are going for fencing, where there are all these regs to comply with, rather than hedging, where there are fewer rules?? If it's just about 'instant' cover, then perhaps the cost of the fence might be weighed against the cost of slightly older, bushier hedging plants? I realise you have long boundaries, though, and that planting costs can be significant!!

Don't forget that you don't just have to have a block to sight in a line along the boundary. In fact, screening can often be more beautiful if it's not just linear (the examples in that Majestic Trees site really show this!). Bringing taller things into the middle of the garden can be lovely - this is what I'm going to do to screen out an eyesore of a warehouse that's being built about half a mile from my house - the elevated position means you can see it for miles!

The retaining wall has been built and all the fence posts concreted in place. This was what prompted our neighbour's reaction. The posts haven't yet been trimmed to the final height so they saw them and assumed the worst.

We're re-using the fence that was previously there. We're past the point of no return now, I'm afraid, but would have needed a fence regardless. Safety for the children - they need to be contained in the garden - and security.

See my sketch - the fence is 2m in our boundary (such a waste of garden space, IMO) and it's built parallel to existing beech plants along the old fence line. These are already at least the height of the final wall plus fence. They might even be higher at the end of this season. But they are gappy. DH is going to add more hedging there to ensure the fence and wall will both be totally concealed eventually.

And he also plans to plant wild flowers along the verge in front of the hedge.

I am not sure how well received a 'mini meadow' will be because these houses have the most sterile harsh landscaping you can imagine. No gardens at all. No flowers, shrubs or trees. Just strip of lawn to kerb and driveways. They might think meadows are 'messy'.

I've been searching all morning and can't find anything that gives clarity on this in Scotland. Specifically, retaining walls and fence heights with respect to changing ground level. I am absolutely not the kind of person to challenge policy or law - I'll work with it - but I have possibly got myself into that situation. How deep I don't know, because I can't find anything.

DH wants us to say nothing and carry on and see what happens. And I'm so stressed by it all that my hands are visibly shaking.

The reason we seem to be putting the cart before the horse and not doing proper research first, was because we needed to grab hold of the opportunity to get tons and tons of free topsoil. This is a massive pile on my lawn now.

Awwwww, please don't feel so anxious. Honestly, this is all going to be OK. It's just about finding the right solution.

I remember the topsoil issue, and I think you did the right thing. It would have cost a fortune to buy that much!

I cannot really see that there is any objection in reason (I can't speak about planning!!). A hedge is essentially already in place along the boundary and it is higher than your fence. All the fence does is to add an extra visual barrier. By the sounds of things, it really won't have any meaningful impact on light, air or anything else. I suspect your neighbours will be reassured when they see the final height of the fence - perhaps the untrimmed fence posts just looked a bit alarming initially.

I think your DH's idea is brilliant- add more beech into the existing hedge at the same time as you do the fence (you can buy small plants very cheaply indeed) so that you have a 'green' boundary as well. A thick beech hedge is just as good for security as a fence - probably better, in fact. As the children get older and containment is less of an issue, you then have the option of removing the fence and having more garden space should you wish.

And I think if the 'verge' is your garden, then it's up to you what you put on there! Wild flowers sound like a lovely idea.

All my knowledge is in English planning I'm afraid Cakey, there's nothing written down really in terms of where ground level is taken from, it's all case law based in terms of previous court judgements etc. I agree with your DH though, if it doesn't get reported it isn't a problem...

Objectively, it shouldn't be a problem to anyone - not even planning. Objective reason can see that the existing hedge plants are already as high as the adjusted fence height and the fence and wall will ultimately be totally covered. I now can't see into my neighbours downstairs rooms, which I would have thought they'd be happy about.

Today the developers were on site with contractors. Our builders heard one of the other builders saying, 'Oh, I wonder if they got planning permission for that? I think I need to write to the council...'. Said in a loaded way. Our builder said it could be because we objected to their development (us and two-thirds of the village!)

I am a total wreck. DH is phoning the director of the company this afternoon to see where we stand with them. He never answers his phone though.

I wonder if planning is aware how massively bad development affects lives?

Oh cakey I wish I could just give you a really big hug. And a cuppa. Or maybe wine.

The builders won't write to the council - my guess is they are just joshing you (in a really deeply insensitive way) because they know you're unhappy with the new houses going up, and being in the middle of a controversy between a developer and the public is uncomfortable for them as employees who have to be there. They'll know you haven't got planning because of the speed of the build- but that doesn't mean they'll report you, or that doesn't mean you can't get planning permission retrospectively if you do need to go down that route.

But here's the important bit: even if ye planning gods say you can't have a fence that high, you can STILL plant a damn thick hedge, right? Thick enough that you can't see through it any time of year, and so you and the family are secure. As a child I grew up in a garden with thick hawthorn hedges and ivy all over. There's no way you get through that stuff when you're little!! Hedges thicken up really fast if you plant relatively large plants, too.

Cakey, I am a planner, and we are in fact normal people capable of empathy.

The fence more than likely won't be too much of a problem, but objectivity doesn't come in to determining whether something needs permission, it either does or doesn't. Holly is correct though, you can have a massive hedge!

Wildidle - I believed throughout this process that the planner was empathetic and u didn't envy her her job. She kept her cards close to her chest, but seemed to give subtle 'heads-ups' from time to time. For example, I would never have known that the development was initially rejected (2003) for being out of character, etc, etc, if she hadn't mentioned it to us. And she said it with a 'look', IYKWIM. As well as other things. I said to DH at the time that I'd have done exactly the same if I could see an injustice was taking place and wanted a community to make the most informed objection possible.

It's pretty clear this is all wrong: the comment by the committee member that addressing the issues now would be like 'closing the stable door after the horse has bolted', still strikes me as one of the most unfair things I've ever heard.

If it wasn't for the information you gave, I'd still be unclear about whether we needed permission based on the online stuff I've found. We've been told by both our builder and landscape consultant that we don't need permission but I'm really not confident they are correct.

Shove - thank you. That was a hug. I'm really struggling. I'd like to move, if I'm honest. I feel as if my home life and future has been blown wide-open and now subject to the whims of strangers. But I think we'd never re-coup what we spent. The development is very intrusive and will be off-putting to buyers. We're trapped and have to try do what we can. It's the possibility that we might be denied doing even that that is overwhelming me at the moment. It's breathtakingly unjust.

I understand how you feel - it's a huge blow. But they CAN'T deny you the screening you need, because even if they say you have to tear down the fence, there are umpteen ways of getting it that aren't even covered by planning or any other form of regulation, that no-one can do a thing about. You are absolutely - for a dead cert - going to get your privacy back. It's as simple as planting a few trees. This is where having all that lovely space comes into its own. I am honestly not just saying this to make you feel better. If I thought you'd always feel very overlooked, I'd say so! (Just look at that Majestic Trees website again if you feel the need for encouragement - you can do something similar!)

I think it's very, very natural when you've had a shock and feel bruised to want to move. It's a can't-fight-must--fly reaction. But that doesn't mean it's the right thing, for you or your family. Let the dust settle, give yourself time to feel less anxious, to adjust to the new houses and- above all - let your screening grow. Things look VERY different when the leaves are out - even more so once trees have got going and shot up. And when that's the case, buyers will no longer be put off - a lovely home, in a beautiful part of the world, with an acre of land is always going to be attractive! Though the situation is less than ideal, you are not trapped long term. But by the time you've made that part of your garden high, majestic and beautiful, you probably won't want to move either!

Apart from the hedge/knolls, I'm not sure if we DO have enough space to really go for it shove. This is the narrowest strip of the garden, unfortunately. I really must try do a scale drawing including houses positions opposite. I value all the suggestions here, and it might help if you can see the dimensions.

That would definitely be helpful! There are trees of all shapes and sizes, from pencil-thin to extremely spreading. Something will fit!!

I'm working on that drawing! Shove, what are you planning to plant to hide the higher warehouse with illuminated sign? We're heading to a tree place this afternoon to look at trees, and the botanics tomorrow to get a sense of how they've screened the road as kr1stina suggested.

Our fence is now up but the builder has asked us to not backfill the soil to level the garden for a couple of weeks. This is to make sure the wall is strong.

I can see now that the top of the fence will be about level with the bottom of the top floor windows for all houses. In other words, the whole of the top floor windows will be visible over the fence. We will be planting more trees on our side, on the bunds to address this, but I wondered about maybe also growing creepers along the top of the fence?

I wouldn't want to add trellis to the fence because that would be more 'fence structure' and potentially more issues. But what about wires strung in three rows? I could put these in after the knolls are planted up in our garden so the wires disappear against the plants behind them.

The reason I thought of this is because I grew Clematis (Montana) over an arch in my previous house, and honeysuckle over a trellis along a low wall. The honeysuckle was a thug, and eventually pulled the trellis over. The clematis got thicker and thicker over the years creating a huge pile on top of the arch. In winter, although both were deciduous, but the bare enmeshed vines created a barrier. I obviously ended up with too much previously because I didn't look after it properly (because I don't really know how, yet). I thought a more carefully controlled vines could maybe add another layer on top of the fence, possibly screening out half the windows?

What are your thoughts:

1/ a mixture of creepers providing different colours along the length of the fence?
2/ will these become an issue for the beech hedging against the fence?
3/ is this really difficult to control ?
4/ which creepers could provide interest and screening with their bare vines in winter?
5/ would wires work or would they collapse under weight of creepers?
6/ what do you think generally of doing this?
7/ are people allowed to do this or is it another planning issue?