Which fourth A-level is better alongside Physics, Maths and Further Maths? Or are chemistry/economics equally good choices?

[Baddogs]

DS is trying to decide on his 4th a level.
He knows he wants to do Physics, Maths and Further Maths, but can't decide whether to do economics or chemistry as the 4th.
He knows he wants to do physics at University and is predicted very high grades so has his eye on some very competitive university courses but I am not sure whether there's a "better".option to take for the 4th a level or whether both are equally good options?

(I studied law so feel a bit clueless guiding him in science choices!)

I did Maths, FM, Physics and Chemistry with the aim of either Medicine or Physics at uni.
By the end of sixth form I no longer wanted to do Physics and in fact I ended up studying Biology (Scottish uni though I think I could have done Biochemistry in England without Biology A level) and Chemistry was compulsory in the equivalent of English first year. I would bear in mind that he may change his mind about his degree and that Chemistry will help with Physics.
However I really didn't like it at A level and I was annoyed to have to do it at uni! I really enjoyed Biochemistry - the chemistry was just different - and I enjoyed physical chemistry because I still loved physics even though it wasn't my uni subject.

Does his school offer proper computer programming as an A level (NOT IT)? He's likely to need to code in a scientific career. Lots of people pick it up via following examples on stack exchange etc, but having a bit of a grounding in how things properly work can be valuable, and might set him up to be skilled in something very useful throughout his studies. It's as well regarded as a science A level.

They do but I don't know if he can do it if he hasn't done it at GCSE?. We're also discussing whether to learn that outside of school (just because there's so many a levels he would like to do)

Same for us. If he’s y10 there should be time for a few open day visits - they often run them around now, and again in the autumn and my sons both found it v helpful going to as many as possible (eg visiting same college a couple of times) to talk with the subject teachers and find out a lot more about the courses. They often run taster days too.

FWIW I knew a few very hardcore physicists at Cambridge who ended up branching out into more multidisciplinary physics/chemistry/applied maths linked areas, at PhD level anyway. At school the subjects are so restricted compared to at uni, of course. I found that quite a lot of chemistry at uni turned into maths, so he may start liking it more the more he does!

I would always recommend geology / geophysics, it’s a wonderful cross disciple science as well, but sadly very few places do geology / geophysics a levels. A few do, but even the enormous 2000+ student sixth form colleges we looked at didn’t have any geo a levels. Most of the geologists on my undergrad were taking it up for the first time.

I think it is fine to have not done the GCSE - here’s info from Farnborough Sixth form college, one of the large well rated colleges in our area:

Q: How much overlap is there between the GCSE and the A level and is it a problem if I've not done the GCSE?
A: They overlap a lot, and if you've done a Computer Science GCSE (particularly with the OCR exam board), you'll find the first half term quite familiar. However, a good number of our students take the A level without a GCSE and they perform well. The most important things are that you have good logical thinking, some numeracy skills, an interest in the subject (see course content above) and tenacity. You can't give up each time your code gives an error.

Check with the school / college, but if he's as bright and good at maths as you say and can read up a bit over the summer, I would think he could do just fine without the GCSE.

I would leave the economics as the thing to think about after school (and possibly / probably drop). It's not studied technically in school, which may frustrate him, and means that university studies have to start again anyway. But the interesting relevant bits are easy to follow informally via pop econ books and blogs: start with Tim Harford, and also look at https://www.core-econ.org/ if he really wants to spend time with it in his evenings. Actually, even if he were to completely change his mind and want to do economics at university, computer programming would be a better A level preparation than economics A level.

Chemistry: nothing against it but it sounds like it doesn't excite him and it wouldn't develop useful skills or a wider view of the world in the same way as computer science or economics would.

Fab thank you this is very helpful. He happily reads around subjects at home so you are right,.the key to us is to find the things best done in school

Amazing! Thank you! This is really helpful. This might be a good option and I might suggest he does some learning at home now to help build up knowledge

yes we are sort of prepping for next round of college visits so we know what questions we want to ask

He could pick up coding and CS outside A levels. Ds did do it for GSCE but is switching to Chemistry.

CS just doesn’t have as much interest for him, and he feels Chemistry will be more challenging.

Honestly computer science A level is in my view not always the best from a coding perspective. You should check specifically that the school course includes python, which is the main useful one to learn from his perspective.
He will also be learning a fair amount of computer fundamentals which may not be of interest at all ... modern scientists heavily use computing to do their work but most of them don't know how the computer works in detail.
If it is of interest to him though it could be a good choice!

Interesting! Thank you.
Its good to get a range of perspectives as I feel totally clueless

It's very regional. In my geology course, almost everyone from the Midlands up had done it at A level, some even at GCSE, mostly at comprehensives. It doesn't seem to be offered in the south though. Maybe all the southerners were privately educated though, which limits options

(apologies OP this is likely not v relevant to you!)

Rather wonderfully, the Geolsoc have produced a report on geology school provision, including a (2024) map. The densest cluster is around Manchester, and it’s particularly sparse in Surrey where I am. But it’s pretty sparse overall - in 2024 only 100 schools and colleges across England, Wales and Northern Ireland offered A-level Geology, and 27 offered GCSE Geology.

And there’s been quite a decline over time too - in the 1980s around 4000 students took geology a level yearly, but by 2020 it was down to around 1400. It had been just two exam boards but I think it’s going down to one.

I don’t imagine there’s much correlation to private / non private schools - probably more linked to schools where one of the science teachers happens to have a geology background as well as teaching eg chemistry.

This map is crowdsourced I think, so it may be missing bits, but it likely gives a decent picture overall. I can’t even find a level results for geology specifically on ofqual analytics pages.

https://www.thisisgeoscience.com/the-resources/student-numbers

https://www.esta.ac.uk/uk-teaching-centres

If you are capable of a top grade in FM, ordinary maths comes for free. DS and some friends added Chemistry, some others added History.

Actually that's only true if they do them both after two years. DS found that they had covered stuff in FM before they got to it in Maths.

Beware, if he doesn’t adore chemistry, of the overlap in maths, f maths, physics and chemistry. I did that combination and ended up (after three double periods on the trot one day when we did exponential decay in all three subjects) demanding to be allowed to do something else on the side (in the days when there were no A stars and so less concern about overstretch!). French AS was a handy distraction.

The world of coding from the POV of scientists may change quite a bit by the time he gets to uni - I’m not sure how the heck A level syllabuses can keep pace with some of the current disruptive technologies. I’ve recently retired after 40 years in computational chemistry(biophysics, structural biology…) - the hard bit is the science not the coding, and the latter should become easier.

My son does CS
He would have ended up with chemistry if they hadn't offered the CS (his year was the first time they did) and wow am I grateful he did not do chemistry
Much harder, and he does not love it so would have been a slog
Also doubles the number of required practicals that need writing up, which he loathed in physics.

I believe doing 4 has meant he has not had the time to truly give FM what it needs and he won't get an A* but he doesn't need one so it doesn't matter. There is time for 4, he's had plenty of down time at home which he needs due to neurodiversity, but the period from mocks to real exams has required a LOT of work due to his relaxed attitude in Y12.

He has been happier tinkering with code than he would have been giving double time to FM, so I think it worked out ok for him however the amount of exams he's still got left compared to everyone else is upsetting 😅. There is a coding project in CS so don't do it if that doesn't appeal. It took up a lot of time, 100 pages worth of work.

But the chances of low grades with 4 A levels increases…..

Surely if they choose 4 as opposed to 3, they are far more likely to drop a grade in one of their subjects?

My DC is making noises about doing 4 and I'm really hoping to dissuade them.

What if they don't get on with one of their 3 A-levels? They can always drop one if doing 4, but would have a huge stress trying to do an extra A-level in a year if they started with 3. There's a very recent thread from someone in exactly this position (predicted A * in two A-levels but failing the third (Maths) and needing to drop it).

Both of my DCs were at 6th forms where the norm was to start 4 A levels and (usually) drop 1. DS did drop one where the jump from GCSE to A level proved unexpectedly hard for him. DD continued all 4, an interesting mix of creative, language & 2 STEM.

ETA: the A level DS dropped was one that had been ‘nailed on’ for years and he had done extremely well in at GCSE. Had he started with 3, he would very much have been in the position of 2 good results and one very poor one, rather than the 3 good results he in fact achieved.

If you’re one of the A levels is further maths, and the student is good at maths, it’s much easier than 4 distinct subjects. It’s just effectively accelerated maths for someone who already finds maths easy.