Advice on A level choices. How are children supposed to know at 15 what career?

[Spamfrit]

I know this is nothing new, and like most people are worried (probably unnecessarily) of DS making a mistake in his A level choices and cutting off options.
I think he’s a 7/8 GCSE level kid in most subjects bar Spanish. Has taken history/art/DT options too.
He did work experience with a big global food brand and quite fancies marketing/advertising/branding etc.
He is naturally creative and arty. His first thoughts for A level were DT product design, Art and Maths.
His school advised him to maybe consider business. His strongest subject is probably English.
Any thoughts to those in the business. Does a marketing degree lead onto good things? Are there opportunities? What A levels would anyone advise? Thanks

Remember that they’re not stuck from 15… I did all arts and humanities at A level, two arts degrees, worked in the arts.

Now I’m 30 and doing a science degree.

On MN people will often give advice based on the most selective universities. People will talk about what is needed for Oxbridge, LSE etc. Even at these most selective universities the subjects required are often not quite as restrictive as is suggested. For example, 2 from a preferred list + one other is often fine. People will also suggest that in some sectors there is prejudice against particular types of degrees. This is doubtless true in some organisations, but there are also lots of recruiters who wont care. I have a family member who has a degree that many would scoff at yet they are a high earner. It is often the whole package that matters (experience, intiative, interpersonal skills ...)
It is great to be aspirational, but the reality is that most students are unlikely to be able to meet the entrance requirements for the most selective universities. Basing subject choices on the preferences of a handful of elite institions can be unwise. You have to be realistic about likely pathways for a student based on their GCSE profile.

It is difficult when decisions have to be taken so young, but to make an informed choice you really need to look at the entrance requirements for a range of possible degrees at a range of universities. If you are interested in architecture, biochemistry, business, economics or whatever you need to look at what subjects and what grades are required at different universities. Then think about how likely getting those grades in those subjects would be. One of the good things about the internet is that you can google entrance requirements really quickly. It doesnt take that long & you can look at a range of institutions and a range of possible subjects.

STEM degrees often have better employment prospects, but equally some people have great careers with non-STEM degrees. Interest and aptitude matter. Grinding through a degree you hate to do a job you dont enjoy can be pretty miserable. If the career is lucrative it might be worth it, but then again it might not.

I think another thing to consider is that if a young person is keen on STEM/engineering, and they have okay, but not super high grades then there are courses out there. They may not be RG/the most selective but they can have decent employment prospects. For example, if a young person was interested in engineering, but they are looking at a C in maths A level then Coventry is a possibility.

Mumsnet often focuses on more selective courses, but there are alternatives. If they want to do maths A level from a 7 at GCSE and work hard and get a C there will be STEM and engineering options. They wont be at the most selective universities though. It is thinking about what pathway is best for them.

https://www.coventry.ac.uk/course-structure/ug/eec/mechanical-engineering-mengbeng-hons/

I'd think carefully about maths, DS got a 9 at GCSE, did A-level maths, worked hard, got 70% overall and got a B.
I don't think I would do DT and art because the amount of coursework is likely to be huge.
I'd probably go DT, English and Business/Economics depending on maths grade. Then maybe core maths if offered or an EPQ (especially if he wants to do a degree apprenticeship/the uni he wants offers a grade reduction).

Whatever degree he doess encourage him to have a number of other CV worthy things going on ie getting involved in running a relevant society, a year in industry, his own side hustle ie making and selling 3D printed models, a GitHub account with his designs on, part time job, relevant volunteering. I think these things are as important than the degree tbh.

If he wants to do a degree apprenticeship then I'd be looking at doing as many of these things as he can starting now. DS got his degree apprenticeship (software engineering) because he had taught himself a few programming languages and had a github account of games he'd made, had got relevant work experience with a company (only a week though), had volunteered at school's computer club, relevant EPQ, and was involved with the a school comp sci project. You have to have a really good CV and lots to talk about at interview including examples of working as a team (he found).

Most 15 year olds do not have a good sense of what career they want and a lot of the ones that do change their mind.

what they usually do have is a good sense of what they don’t like.

it can be easier to start from that.

so look at what he doesn’t want to do.

i get the sense from what you are writing that he is not interested in sciences. In which case you can rule those out.

there is genuinely not much point doing a level maths if you are not looking at a maths or science degree. It is also a big step up from gcse. If he really really wants to keep maths on core maths can be a good option.

beyond that, you are looking at languages/humanities split. Languages a level should generally only be done if you’ve done the gcse so that forces certain choices.

if a dc is talking about running their own business or being self employed in future a school will often suggest business as while it’s a less academic a level it does give you a lot of useful background.

Lots.

it’s quite common.

(ex teacher at a school with a sixth form).

most colleges/sixth forms will let you swop until the October half term as well.

it’s very very common for students to start and then realise within the first week even that the subject isn’t what they thought.

My main consideration and advice would be to consider the impact of AI on the future career.

Yes, I agree. This seems it will in someways wipe out a lot of careers/options.

Thankyou for this insight. His sixth form he is applying to does offer core maths.
I totally get you on the ‘extras’ thing. Well done on your son he sounds awesome

This is good advice. I flipped it on its head over tea and asked him what he definitely doesn’t want to continue.
That narrowed things down.. he doesn’t seem particularly excited about carrying on with English. When asked either English or maths he went Maths. Product design he is keen to hold onto for some ‘creativity’. And he seems keen on the concept of economics (told him to watch some YouTube videos on what it’s all about)
Then if it needs some reevaluation come results day/first few weeks of term.

No, I think he was wide eyed at the world of work/people and the timetable they had him on

I always think looking at revision guides can give a good clue,as to whether the course will be interesting.

I do agree. There is such a lot of valuable advice on here. I think the expectation is that we are all or should be top tier.
I like most just want him to be happy, fulfilled, not closing doors with the option of a career at the end. I mean this would be a bonus if he could earn a salary to have a reasonable quality of life

Re business a-level
My DD has taken business, economics and politics and has offers to do Economics at Leeds, Liverpool, Sheffield and York. She is predicted an A star in business which I think has helped, but that's because she finds it interesting. She got a 7 in maths gcse so didn't want to take it for a level, but the universities seem happy with that!

I have a business studies student who has applied for Architecture. He is also doing Art but I can't remember what his last subject is. I've had other students in the past who also applied for Architecture so its still possible with Business A Level

OP I'd suggest picking the subjects he enjoys. Is his school not doing taster lessons for Y11? It's not necessary to do business A Level if you want to study it later at uni. It is also helpful to look at the UCAS website and Unifrog is also a good starting point to look at what you may need to study for certain degree/career choices

@Spamfrit The advice about maths is poor. If he likes it, it’s great for any degree. I’m sure he’s not interested, but Cambridge list it for ALL their degrees - stem or humanities. So take it if he gets an 8 or 9 in it.

Economics is a subject that’s more about concepts and business studies is more about how a business is run. If he wants an economics degree, take economics. Product design is best with maths. Art not necessary and very time consuming. Bus studies would be fine as a 3rd with product design and maths.

I would go for a management or business degree over marketing. Marketing is too narrow. Go broad for degree and then specialise. Much better to look at all business jobs and he might find careers he’s not thought of.

My son is at a good uni with one of his degrees being business so I wouldn’t worry too much about it - universities are so desperate for students that they are less picky on what subjects potential intakes have got than they used to be and it’s the overall UCAS points that count. What I would say though (and it was advice my son ignored) if he can do maths it keeps loads of options open re engineering/science etc so I would encourage that alongside two others he enjoys doing.

if he is clever enough to do maths (eg will get an 8 at gcse he shills do that). Wouldn’t do Art and product design will limit choices. Economics better thought off but harder. If he is clever I’d suggest maths English and economics. Or product design maths and English?

I agree that maths is good for a lot of degrees. DS2 took A level maths and would agree it was helpful at the start of his biological sciences degree.

But @Spamfrit suggests that her DS is looking at a possible grade 8 on his best day with intervention helping him to that grade. That doesn't sound ideal for maths A level, is what some of us are saying. My DS got an easy 8 at GCSE and found A level the biggest challenge of his choices. He got a hard-won B FWIW.

But I wouldn't say maths was good "for any degree". It is absolutely not needed at A level for a degree in Eng lit or history or MFL or politics or art. If he is likley to struggle to get a B at A level, but will find it easier to get A or Astar in business (or DT or history or sociology) then they are better choices IMHO unless he loves maths so much.

I'm not against maths A level at all btw. I almost took it (and often wish I had) and I am an MFL specialist!

@clary Well no, not needed. However when working there are clear advantages. My DD certainly didn’t like maths enough to do it and stuck to her strengths. The dc here should do similar but dc without a string of 8/9 grades have to choose something and no point in stem without maths really. I was assuming he liked it!

I think that A level maths is a great choice for those with an aptitude and interest. For some pathways, it is a requirement. Students interested in these options may therefore choose it knowing that it is going to be challenging.
However, im not sure what is meant by 'there is no point in STEM without maths'. If you are including science degrees within STEM, there are plenty of science degrees that you can do without maths A level. Below are example requirements for Chemistry at Birmingham. For this course, AAB from say chemistry, biology and say psychology is likely to be okay. ABC from Chem, Bio and Maths is likely not. Students need to research subject and grade requirements from possible courses and think about what they are likely to achieve at A level and what their course aspirations are.

There are courses where maths is required (including most engineering courses). If a student is keen on engineering, then it is possible with maths at say a C, but it is likely to be a less selective course. It is important to be realistic about likely pathways and research what would and would not be possible.
Science courses can be options without maths. I dont doubt it would be good preparation, but many students are accepted and cope on these science courses without it. The important thing is to research and make an informed choice. Every uni will have their published requirements on their websites.

Required subjects and grades:
AAA -* *A-level Chemistry and no supporting subjects.
AAB - A-level Chemistry and a supporting subject from Mathematics, Further Mathematics, Physics, Biology or Computing (not ICT).
Minimum Maths requirement GCSE grade 6.
We accept resits for both A-levels and GCSEs.
General Studies, Critical Thinking and Use of Maths are not accepted.

I also just took a quick look at architecture (because I know nothing about it & I think the OP's child is interested in creative options). A very brief scan shows some courses may require maths, but others don't.
Leeds = maths required
Liverpool = no subject requirements
Sheffield = maximum of two arts a levels, but no other subject restrictions.
BTECs + an A level accepted by Liverpool and Sheffield. They also accept some specific T levels.

If @Spamfrit 's DS is interested in creative courses like architecture & product design there are options thst dont need maths. However, it is worth looking at a range of possibilities.

@OwlbookendI’m not sure where you’re getting that information from but I work closely with sixth formers and the requirements for architecture are Math or Physics with Art or DT.
OP you are over thinking this. Just let DS pick what he enjoys and will do best at. The vast majority of careers have a fairly flexible entry criteria. The most important thing is that your DS enjoys what he’s studying. I agree that Maths is a bad idea if doing the GCSE hasn’t come easily to him. The A Level is a huge step up.

Not my specialist area as I said. I just read the webpages. Maybe I am.missing something.
Liverpool
https://www.liverpool.ac.uk/courses/architecture-ba-hons#entry-requirements
Sheffield
https://sheffield.ac.uk/undergraduate/courses/2026/architecture-ba
Leeds
https://courses.leeds.ac.uk/g800/architecture-meng-beng#entry

Not claiming any expertise. Just read published requirements. I may have missed something. It was just a quick glance & I make mistakes. However, my quick read suggests of these 3 (tiny sample) only Leeds requires maths.