Advice on A level choices. How are children supposed to know at 15 what career?

[Spamfrit]

I know this is nothing new, and like most people are worried (probably unnecessarily) of DS making a mistake in his A level choices and cutting off options.
I think he’s a 7/8 GCSE level kid in most subjects bar Spanish. Has taken history/art/DT options too.
He did work experience with a big global food brand and quite fancies marketing/advertising/branding etc.
He is naturally creative and arty. His first thoughts for A level were DT product design, Art and Maths.
His school advised him to maybe consider business. His strongest subject is probably English.
Any thoughts to those in the business. Does a marketing degree lead onto good things? Are there opportunities? What A levels would anyone advise? Thanks

Take a look very specifically at the product design courses. Not sure if you’re staying on at the school or looking at other sixth form options. My son was interested in 3D design, and found that some places do a very arty 3D design course, quite sculptural almost, housed in the art department, and others do a more “science DT architecture” 3D design course which is a bit closer to engineering. They have a lot of overlap but some are really quite arty - my son was avoiding them because he was more keen on the engineering-leaning options. So he may find a design course that really ticks a lot of art boxes too.

OK @Spamfrit just a few thoughts.

If he is having intervention to get his maths up to a 7, an 8 on his very best day, I suspect A level maths is not a good idea. Maths teachers on these boards agree it should not be done with a lower grade than a 7, and if that 7 (while a fune grade) was hard-fought-for, it's probably not ideal.

Yes does he want to go to LSE? Or Oxford or Cambridge? Those are the main unis that specify in general specific subjects. While that's all good and those lists are useful, there’s no benefit to your DS taking physics (or whatever) when he hates it and won't get a good grade, just bc it's on the list.

It's important of course to take any subject that's needed for your uni plans – medecine? take chem and bio; engineering? take physics and maths; Eng lit? take errrm Eng lit.

A lot of degrees have no specific subject requirements.

What makes sense is to take subjects he likes that he is good at. I would say art may no0t be the best idea unless he plans to pursue it. Maths may be out of his reach tbh. English lit is great if he is good at that. How about another humanity – history, RS? A new subject like psychology, sociology, politics?

Despite some comments on here, there is nothing wrong with business A level (not Bus studies btw). Does he do it for GCSE? It can be done as a Btec - perfectly good – but the A level is also available and not a vocational subject to be looked down on. If he would do well and get an A, that's a lot better, and will open more doors, than a C or a D in maths tbh.

Business A level is fine at the vast majority of universities and is on the preferred list of a fair few.

It's best for a child to do subjects they like and are good at.

It's better to get an A in Business than a B in Economics.

Look at courses of interest and what A levels if any are preferred.

I suspect Business or a Management degrees is better than a marketing degree.

Agree, and LSE is renowned for being difficult to get into! Look at a broad range of Uni's to get a sense of entry requirements. Economics and Business A levels are quite different.

Why do you say that business is not a well respected A level? Anecdotally I know a number of YP who did it and went on to do well at good unis, gaining excellent degrees and in some cases doing a masters, in one case starting a great role in London.

What about business A level is a bad idea? Who is not accepting it? Just out of interest really.

If he was already interested in Maths and is good at English then Maths English and PD gives him a good A level base for a degree going forward if he wants to go into marketing/business. Maths leaves open an Economics degree too.

It's just not actually conducive to business. Many top tier universities do not recommend it, and would rather suggest a more 'academic' subject like Economics if business of interest. I'm genuinely not trying to do it down for the sake of it. It's just that if you want to work in business, it isn't a particularly useful qualification.

My daughter has three top tier unconditional Uni offers to study business with a Business BTEC, the offers include Bath, Exeter and Durham. She has applied for two more and none of them have asked for Economics.

If she was going to do Economics the key A Levels are Maths I believe with Economics which she doesn't have.

All I'm going to say is again my daughter has unconditional offers in to Exeter, Durham and Bath with a BTEC in Business. She's not studying economics, she's studying business so no requirement for economics. Thank god the unis aren't as judgmental as half the A Level parents who post on this board.

I think he’s doing Maths because I suggested it as something solid to go with his creative ones.
I’m now second guessing Maths from some of these valid comments. If a 7/8 is an old A/A- of old times and it’s not advisory to take it on after. But I understand, I don’t want to encourage and then he struggles

How much choice movement is there to choose once he has his gcse results? Did anyone’s children completely change choices based on results?

That's great for your daughter and I hope she enjoys her course.

If OP's post had indicated that her son was interested in Business at uni, my advice would have been different.

Instead, it seems that he is unsure about what to do, and wants to keep his options open, which is why I pointed out that some unis prefer certain subjects in case it's a relevant consideration for him 🤷🏼‍♀️

This is something you need to speak to where ever you apply. Our 6th form was brilliant and courses were being changed around on GCSE exam results day to suit the needs of the students who had already been accepted and what best met there grades.

Which top-tier universities though? Cambridge I agree has it on its “less useful to study” list but even then, you could take two from its preferred list and be fine.
LSE has a similar list. So there are two that say that. Do many others? I wonder. And neither of those actually excludes it or says they will reject those who have it. So probably better to try to get to Cambridge with three A stars in English, history and business than subbing the business for a B in economics or maths.

And if you look at a business degree at Leeds, or management at Warwick, or business management at Birmingham (all surely top-tier unis) none of them mention A level subjects at all.

Let’s face it, not many of us can say our A levels are directly useful to our working lives. In terms of skills, yes for sure. And in terms of some subjects yes indeed. But I doubt if many people working in project management are using their knowledge of the Tudors on a daily.

@Spamfrit in terms of changing, yes it’s pretty common. Especially if results have thrown a curveball. Ironically a YP I know got a lower grade in business (!) than expected and considered switching for geog where they got a higer grade (tho in the end they didn't). My DD switched an A level about a week into the first term.

I have no advice but in the same boat! My daughter is looking at similar a levels but is thinking biology instead of maths. We have been to some uni open days to see if any of the courses sound interesting to help her to decide what she might like to do. She has been interested in one particular course so that has helped her. It's so hard to navigate and seems so young to be making choices!

It does, the job market seems pretty dire and I want to advise him knowing his skill set and strengths. What’s the point in working hard, spending 50k+ on a degree?
Fab that she’s found a course that she’s interested in. I went down the science route and feel there seems to be more options, more vocational degrees leading to jobs.
But get there might be some bias.

I wouldn't do maths unless very good at it. If an 8 is coming quite easily then he might be ok to get a decent grade, but it's very difficult and very competitive.

DT is good if you can do it in your school. I have twins in Y12 and encouraged them to do what they enjoy and where their skills are. Unless you have a very clear idea, like wanting to be a doctor or dentist or vet, or work in finance, it's difficult to decide. I also encouraged them to start with 4 A levels. DD quickly dropped politics, even though she thought she'd really like it. DS is dropping geography even though it was one of his favourite GCSEs and he's loving chemistry which he just did as a fourth to try it out.

I work with Marketing colleagues (Finance) and they say they would never employ someone with a marketing degree. Economics, Business, Languages, Accounting, Social Policy, Psychology, English etc. They just don’t think a marketing degree provides the right skills. Seems a bit odd to me.

Cambridge and Oxford are certainly not the best place for all students top tier or not.
My daughter is off to do Business Management, she has all unconditional offers but her preferred places are Exeter and Durham. Of course I don't imagine that she will go straight in to the workplace as some sort of business guru, but I would hope that it would give her some framework/inspiration/ideas on how to do the best job she can that contributes to the success of whoever she is working for which will help boost her in to taking promotions.
TBH I work for a ftse 250 company, I definitely think some of our managers need some more training in how to run a business........ 😬

Your colleagues are weird.

There’s no reason why someone with a marketing degree can’t be taught the right skills in the workplace, but someone with a languages degree can.

That may seem weird but my experience is the same actually. More traditionally academic degree subjects are seen by some organisations as providing evidence of the necessary critical/strategic thinking skills which other courses (like marketing..) don't. I remember an intern proudly telling a marketing director that he was doing a degree in marketing and was scoffed at! Harsh. Almost any degree can lead to a career in marketing - there's absolutely no need for a business A level or a related degree. Graduate schemes are usually looking at calibre of degree and Uni and then have their own inhouse test/interview process. Just aim for the best results in the subjects they'll enjoy most and look for relevant part time jobs, work experience and volunteering - showing an interest via extra stuff often matters most.

Did he ask the people he worked under during his WE?

From what I have seen at 6th form/college it's better for him to do something he loves and obtain good grades in to a better uni over lower grades in things he has been pushed in too. Due to 16yrs olds having to stay in school until they are 18yrs, the dropout rate or those repeating yr 12 was higher at our school than I thought it would be given our school is a good school offering a mixed pathway.
A lot of degrees now only get your foot in the door and depend entirely on how your child applies themself. At the fts 250 company I work for we have a wide range of graduates who go straight in to entry customer service roles before progressing anywhere else, what helps them the most is work in experience in customer services (part time jobs in retail, coffee shops etc) alongside their academic qualifications and interview skills.
I'm currently in a position where I have no idea what my yr10 will do but I don't think A Levels or uni are right for him.

Otoh, doing Core Maths as a 4th could be an idea if offered?