A level choices

[Freedom2025]

Hoping someone will help with this. My daughter wanted to do maths, physics & psychology for her A levels. She didn’t get the 8 she needed for maths to stay at her current grammar school. She got a 7 but needed an 8 because she didn’t do well at pre GCSE maths assessment test. She got a 7 in maths and 8s in physics and biology. She really wants to stay at her current school because she is worried about change and she really loves her school. She has now put down physics, biology and psychology at her current school (all girls grammar with mixed 6th form) and has been accepted.

She has an option of attending a nearby grammar with her original subject choices. This is a boys grammar school with mixed 6th form. She liked it when she visited but not as much as her current school. Now the dilemma is whether it’s worth sacrificing the maths in order to stay at current school or just start afresh elsewhere. If anyone has any wise words please share!

@clary dd3 is doing IB and therefore has to carry on with a language. She is doing Spanish standard level (grade 9 at gcse) and the first couple of lessons in y12 left her wondering if she'd done the right thing by not choosing to do A levels! She is now going into y13 and feeling slightly happier with her Spanish (predicted 7).
I do feel you have to really enjoy the language to do A level and unless you choose to do MFL at university then it is not a necessity unlike maths which is a requirement for lots of degrees.

Haven't RTFT just OP's posts so appreciate you have a lot of info already.

DH is an engineer (mechanical). Think he got a B at A-level maths and a C in Physics back in the day. Got into top engineering uni (appreciate grade requirements much higher now) and has had a good career.

I would really not recommend doing Physics A-level without Maths. Maths is fine on its own but not the other way round.

A more relevant anecdote is my friend's DD who is going to study Mechanical Engineering. She was on track for some E grades in Y12 but has managed to pull things up enough to get offers for Sheffield Hallam, Liverpool with a foundation year, Lincoln and Swansea if I remember correctly.

If your DD thinks she might want to do engineering, I would defo do the Maths and Physics combo. With Biology in there too she also keeps the doors open for healthcare type courses including medicine (there are some places where you don't need Chemistry) so I'd say that is a great combo. If she's got the courage, I'd be changing schools. It'll be character-building at least.

@rockstuckhardplace my friend's dd wanted to do medicine without chemistry but didn't get any offers. She is now training to be a paramedic (she is 20).
Dd2 is a biomedical engineer and didn't do A level biology. She did a general engineering degree and then specialised in her final year (MEng).

@Manthide Maths is necessary for many stem degrees but there’s a whole world of non stem degrees where a MFL A level is valued. Cambridge list MFL as as being best prep for many of their degrees. Maths too but MFLs are equivalent in terms of academic value for many non stem courses.

I have finally spoken to my Niece who just graduated with a first in Aeronautical Engineering. Her pathway was a 7 in maths, 9 in physics at GCSE. Then she got an A in maths a level, A* in Physics. She said to go for it. The 2 ALevels compliment each other and both were essential for the degree.

There is a variety of universities though. Former polys are very good in the main and will not need A stars. Also Engineering has 2 levels of degree. BEng leads to Incorporated Engineer, MEng leads to Chsrtered Engineer with no need for a stand alone masters. BEng A level tariffs are usually set a bit lower.

I do feel you have to really enjoy the language to do A level and unless you choose to do MFL at university then it is not a necessity unlike maths which is a requirement for lots of degrees.

I agree with the first part of that sentence @Manthide indeed you need to love MFL to take A level, like most subjects I would say, and of course A level MFL is not a necessity unless it’s your chosen uni subject; MFL A level is always a good thing to have done tho, and is a recommended A level for some other courses (DD looks at classical civ and MFL was certainly strongly suggested for some courses).

But maths is not a necessity at A level either – who has said that? Maths as such is a requirement for degrees in: maths (and maths-related subjects like stats; computing (a lot of unis but not all); engineering (most unis). Anything else? Not that comes to mind right now (tho I am sure someone will come up with a longer list!). @TizerorFizz you say maths is necessary for many STEM degrees – which tho? Apart from engineering (and maths but that's obvious) I am not sure that’s really true.

Are we saying, MFL A level is not essential so it’s OK to make it a high bar? But because maths A level is needed for so many courses at uni (more, I don’t dispute, but not really that many) the A level should be easier? It should be possible with a lower GCSE grade? Really?

Maths is not a requirement for medicine or vet or psychology or other science degrees. It counts as a science so if that’s relevant then it’s useful. But you can do med without maths, chemistry for sure without maths. Don’t get me wrong, I am a huge advocate of maths A level; DS2 has it and that can never be a bad thing for him. But it was not in any way a requirement for his STEM Master's.

BTW there are unis that offer without chem for medicine, and some that offer without biology. There is a poster who knows all about this (which is why I know haha).

Maths is either needed or a huge help for a wide range of other degrees - physics, pharmacy, medicine, chemistry, environmental science, psychology plus also economics.

I agree that maths is useful for lots of degrees. I said that actually.

I’ll give you physics – that's interesting actually as there have been a few threads lately (inc this one) where DC have been maybe taking physics without maths; many posters have said that physics A level is tough without maths A level; but in fact if maths is needed for a physics degree (certs the top unis I looked at need it) then physics A level alone is even more of a bad idea.

I’ll give you economics too (I would put that under “maths-related degrees”).

You don’t need maths for a degree in pharmacy, medicine, chemistry, psychology, environmental science. You need or ideally would have biology or chemistry or both for some of those courses; or any science (inc maths!). Chemistry for a chem degree and also probably for pharmacy. Best chance for medicine is if you take bio and chem.

We do our YP no favours if we say things like “you need maths for xyz degree” when you don’t. Actually anecdotally I gather med schools like a combo like bio, chem and an essay subject like history. If maths A level is not for you, it certainly doean’t mean these uni and career doors are closed.

I think the Maths gcse needs to prepare people better for A level. My 4dc did FMSQ which was a better stepping stone for A level Maths.
Dd1 is a doctor and she took Biology, Chemistry, Maths and Further Maths A levels with Physics As level ( this was 15 years ago). She said Chemistry was much more helpful in her degree than Biology. I think some of her fellow medics did not do maths but they were definitely the exception.

Maths for me was easy throughout school. I went through to Further Maths with hardly a question wrong and only ever revised a little for further mechanics. I would have expected to get 100% in GCSE, A-level and pure further, and I'd have completed the papers in less than half the time. I couldn't see what anyone could find difficult.
So there will be people for whom maths is very easy.

Ds has just done his A-level and got an A from getting a level 7.

BUT:
He didn't work at GCSE at all (yes, I know!)
He has a lot of absences due to illness so background knowledge was lacking
He was up to any algebra and I knew that he was mathematically inclined.

That A was a lot of work for all of us. He was getting D/E through to February. Then dd (who did a maths degree) started working with him a couple of times a week. He did a couple of papers a week, then corrections etc. This was on top of anything done at school.
It took 3 months before there was any improvement and a lot of frustration from everyone. He didn't have time to do any applied until about a month before the exam.
But on the day he managed to pull it out of the bag, and got his best score ever on two of the papers. But even then I would have put his most likely grade as a C (he tells me lack of faith!) and I had no idea what he would get. I said B down to an E was possible, depending on papers.

I'd sit her down. Explain that the most likely grade for her to get is a C/D. Will that effect what she hopes to do? Does she feel that will effect her uni choices ?

Then, if you can afford it, I would look for a tutor. Preferably one that can be face to face rather than zoom, and book weekly sessions. She'll need to work hard at it outside those sessions too. Is she prepared to do this?
The fact she didn't get through the pre-screening makes me wonder if she's poor on algebra. Start her now on some work. There's a book for bridging the gap:
Head Start to A-Level Maths (with Online Edition): bridging the gap between GCSE and A-Level (CGP Head Start to A-Level): Amazon.co.uk: CGP Books, CGP Books: 9781782947929: Books

If she's struggling with this then she may want to think again. But she may find that if she can get to grips with the algebra then it does all come together. But make sure that she knows that she can come back to you and say it's not going to happen, and change her mind.

There are more degrees where a maths A level is either required or a huge benefit. Not so with MFL but they are still a very good A level for nearly every humanities course. Normally only required for MFL degrees and there’s far fewer of them than stem degrees. One cannot imagine chemistry, physics, economics, etc being a high class degree without maths!

Even employment after a degree. Dh's firm aren't too worried about what degree for entry level, as long as they have a top grade in A-level maths, because it shows an ability to reason.

@MargaretThursdayTo be honest, that’s very silly. DD is a barrister - no maths A level. Your DH would have written her off then? What about those who study history or classics? MFLs often follow rules and logical but your DH would write them off too. None need a maths A level. It’s a bit daft isn’t it unless it’s a maths type job.

That's a rather odd response when you don't know what the job is; I didn't say that it wasn't maths/science based.
It's also not my dh's decision but from those above him who have done a lot of interviewing and training with the entry level graduates.

What they have found over the years is that whereas they initially looked for a science based degree, those who have a good grade in Maths A-level on average do better when they're coming in at the graduate level than those who have what may look like a more relevant degree and don't have the maths.
So rather than "writing off" those who don't have a science based degree, which if you knew what the job was you might expect, they choose to also look at the A-level and increase the ones they interview.
I don't think they've employed anyone with a law degree, but there's certainly one with a history degree and one with a classics - I know both of those did maths and further maths.

it opens up those they look at rather than decreasing it.

@MargaretThursday Well specify the job is for stem students then! You just said a top grade in maths was required. Maybe make it clear it’s stem? You just said they weren’t worried about what degree at entry level but must have top grade maths. To be honest, without context, that’s meaningless. What recruitment?

@Freedom2025let me start of saying congratulations to your dd in doing so well! Amazing results!

Both my children boy and girl did maths Alevel and my ds is now in Uni doing engineering. My dd has just finished her A levels has decided to pursue Apprenticeship.

My dd said Maths A level was hard but she would not change it for the world. She worked consistently and got an A.

Normally I would say not to change schools since A levels are tough and less change the better but saying that I would not compromise your A levels. The 2 year journey is hard and you have to love the subjects you have chosen.

The boys 6th form is still grammar so at least she will be used to their demands and structure. She will make new friends and keep the old ones and grow as a person.

If she thinking of taking Physics- this is hard without maths. 1/3 of the syllabus is mechanics and Stats and this will support her understanding of Physics calculations.

I genuinely believe if a child is driven, committed and a bit of hard work- they can shine in A levels.

Goodluck with your choice and wish you you dc all the best.

I cannot thank you enough all of you for taking the time to respond. I appreciate it. My daughter has decided she will be going to the boys grammar. She is sad to leave what she is familiar with but she is very determined to work hard to achieve her career path.

Hopefully, I will come back to this thread in a few years to share news of her successful career in engineering or something else!

Thanks again, appreciate all comments even though I was not able to respond to each one individually.

My son got 7’s in Maths and Physics and wasn’t allowed to do them for A-Level in the prestigious 6th Form College he moved to. We did not find that out until after he had enrolled and given up his place at his ‘old’ school. He could have gone back, but wanted to go to the new college more than he wanted to do Maths and Physics. He wanted to do Engineering so was devastated and very shocked. Instead he did Statistics and Computer Science. He is about to start the Foundation year of an Engineering degree and is delighted with his choice as there was so much less pressure, and he will enjoy his first year of uni without so much pressure too! There are other routes!

Maths is not essential for many degrees - but it is for Engineering or Physics at any uni I looked at. It is not essential for a load of other subjects but you are a lot more likely to be accepted on some STEM courses at leading universities if you have it.

In similar vein Chemistry is not absolutely essential for medicine - in theory - but you are considerably more likely to be accepted if you have it. When you are talking about such a competitive subject you'd reduce your chance of a place massively by not taking Chemistry.

OP I wish her luck. I think the table someone posted showed 25% of those who get a 7 at GSCE get grade B or above. So she needs to work hard from the start and take all the help she can get. If the school does not encourage more able pupils to help the less able and she starts to struggle then suggest this to them. The teaching helps both pupils.