A level choices

[Freedom2025]

Hoping someone will help with this. My daughter wanted to do maths, physics & psychology for her A levels. She didn’t get the 8 she needed for maths to stay at her current grammar school. She got a 7 but needed an 8 because she didn’t do well at pre GCSE maths assessment test. She got a 7 in maths and 8s in physics and biology. She really wants to stay at her current school because she is worried about change and she really loves her school. She has now put down physics, biology and psychology at her current school (all girls grammar with mixed 6th form) and has been accepted.

She has an option of attending a nearby grammar with her original subject choices. This is a boys grammar school with mixed 6th form. She liked it when she visited but not as much as her current school. Now the dilemma is whether it’s worth sacrificing the maths in order to stay at current school or just start afresh elsewhere. If anyone has any wise words please share!

He didn't revise for his GCSEs basically!

I stayed at my school for the familiar environment over subjects and didn’t regret it. Your daughter knows herself best.

It would be worth to investigate what is the teacher attitude towards girls in the new grammar. There is a lot bias from teachers that boys are better at STEM, as a result girls perform worst in mixed school. It has been shown this is due to the attitude of the teachers and the bias puts off girls from STEM. How many girls do STEM A level in the new school? How many do engineering?
it will tell you a lot.

Hmm a lot to think about @Freedom2025

Firstly a PP says maths is better than physics – seems odd. Physics is just as valid an A level as maths. Physics A level without maths A level is unusual however. Someone did it in DS’s year but a lot of schools won’t allow it. Which suggests that good maths skills are needed.

Noblegiraffe who is a maths teacher, as you may know, suggests not taking A level maths with anything less than a 7. And with a 7 it might be tough going and the student is unlikely to get a grade higher than a C. Someone on the thread about this says their school has been told not to offer A level maths to anyone with a grade lower than 8. So going somewhere else to take maths with a 7 may not work out. But then the same is true of physics without maths!

Also yy engineering will require maths A level pretty much. Would she be interested in leaning towards biology or psych for her degree instead? Perfectly good choice.

Tbh I think the “I want to stay where I am” and “do I want to be in a mainly boys’ school” aspects are secondary. Though still valid. Can she have a chat with a maths teacher to see if they think she could take on A level maths? That might give her a steer. Will her current school take her back if she doesn’t get on at the boys’ school (say after a week or so)?

Those who are shocked that a 7 is not considered good enough for A level maths btw – look at the thread linked by @TeenToTwenties that I mention above. A student started in DS's maths class with a 6 at GCSE and on one early test scored 0. I am not sure if they continued tbh. Tho I have to agree that the majority of schools are happy to take on a student with a 7. But noble says a lot of parents complain that if they had known in advance what kind of lowish A level grade their DC were probably heading for, they might have directed them elsewhere – not that other A levels are easier, but it might be more possible to catch up. If a 7 at GCSE is the upper limit of your achievement then A level will be a challenge. Did your DD work really hard for her 7 @Freedom2025 ?

My 4dc are all mathematically minded and the 3 who have taken Maths and Further Maths said A level Maths was a doddle wheras Further Maths was much harder. I'm surprised it is perceived as so difficult! I also did A level Maths 40+ years ago and exdh did a.maths degree in the 70s. Admittedly the elder 2 did it when it was modular but ds did it 4 years ago. Dd3 is currently doing IB and it's the physics she's having problems with not the maths.

It’s not so much that it is seen as difficult. But it is very linear, like my subject (MFL) and really builds on the GCSE learning. So if that is not secure (and a grade lower than a 7 suggests it is not) then the A level work will be a struggle, whereas a student who found GCSE accessible and scored a high grade will hit the ground running.

Like I say, it’s similar for MFL; if your grasp of French was only good enough for you to get a 6, perfectly good though that grade is, you will not have the level of grammar and linguistic skills I would require and assume for the A level course. If I am teaching A level French, I am not expecting to have to go over how to make the perfect tense of irregular verbs. If I do need to, then that is time I cannot spend on the higher level skills we need to work on.

@clary that makes sense! Ds unfortunately did not like French but his school insisted he had to continue with it until gcse. I was so relieved he got a high 6 (3 marks off a 7) but he'll never be a linguist!

I’m not sure that your experience as a member of a mathematically minded family is of much relevance to the OP. She says her dd didn’t do well in a pre gcse assessment, so it may well be that the 7 that she’s achieved was due to hard work rather than being sufficiently mathsy to thrive at a level (let alone find it ‘a doddle’).

It’s a tough decision, op. A lot of engineering degrees do involve hard maths, and require the A level, and many will want a somewhat or very high grade. Those courses aren’t asking for the grade just as a selection filter; it’s because that’s the required knowledge/ability level to be able to do the degree.
But there are many courses pitched at different levels, and there are foundation courses - one size doesn’t fit all.

She might find physics harder than some others in her class without A level maths. Often it is recommended to do A level maths alongside physics.

Can I just put a few alternative careers in the mix? For example - surveying. Or construction management. Or maybe Urban planning or environment and planning? I would probably look at courses like these and swerve away from engineering because maths is needed for most decent courses.

I think maths is challenging for some but others find it easy. It’s the A level with the highest % of A and A star passes after all!

Physics is going to be a bit useless without the maths. Most degrees for which physics is useful do requiere A level maths. She's better off dropping physics if she's adamant she wants to stay at a school where she can't do maths. If she were my DD I would encourage her to do maths elsewhere though, especially if she enjoyed it.

I think the school are right cautioning her against doing maths tbh. I got an old school A in my GCSEs, which i think is a 7/8 now, and till the age of 16 felt I was good at it (top set always, generally speaking a higher performer in that set) and I massively struggled at A level, I had a tutor who helped me scrape through with a passable grade but I got 4 As (in the days before A stars) at A levels in "proper" subjects and then a C in Maths was a real disappointment. I applied for Cambridge and it was specifically brought up in my interview "what is going on there?"
If she's passionate about it, loves it and is happy to get extra help maybe consider it, but if it's just a vague interest then I think she'll find it very tough, and I suspect she'd be better off with other subjects she genuinely excels in. She's obviously a bright girl with strong aspirations so I'm sure she'll make it work either way, but it really knocked my confidence at that age and I absolutely hated it by the end! There's presumably a reason the school don't want her to take it as an A level, I'd be tempted to believe them.

Think about what grade she is aiming for at Alevel. There was a study done pre-covid that tracked GCSE Maths and Alevel results and very few students with a 7 at GCSE got higher than a C at Alevel. It is not impossible to get higher but not very likely.

At our school they do allow 7s but it is discouraged. That said, not many do Physics without Maths, but with some extra support it is doable.

My sons experience may give you hope/ different perspective.

He is a grammar school boy and easily passed the entrance exam so not a struggler / borderline. However from being a very keen studying / working type in primary / top of class he was fine in year 7 and then year 8/9/10 he lost the joy of learning. Then Covid hit.

He got 7’s in maths physics and engineering ( so probably inflated aswell!). 8’s in chemistry, business, English, biology etc
So A levels were Chemistry, Business and Psychology. He left revision to last minute and although had a good chemistry grade, he was average in the other two despite being much more capable. It was so disappointing to watch this and not understand. He took maths AS and got a U and then an E and was also deemed ‘unsuitable ‘ for maths A level.

He took a gap year and worked in and engineering company for a year and loved it- more practical. Had applied for an engineering foundation year and has just completed that which brought his maths, physics/ mechatronics / mechanics skills up to level 3. He loved the maths because …. It’s now relevant. He even likes coding because it’s relevant. We realised he cannot do these subjects just for the sake of it. He needs them to be applicable to be interested and then he works at them and achieves well.
He is now about to start a mechanical engineering masters at a top university.
He has found his passion. I think as expensive as it was- the foundation year was really worth it for him. He also needed a bit of time to mature and figure out what he really enjoyed and how he learns best. Still got to do the course mind you!! I’ll report back in 5 years as it’s a 4 year masters with a placement !

My son is doing a Civil Engineering degree, he did maths and physics at A level. After A levels he did a degree apprenticeship, others on the same course without the maths A level have struggled and quite a few dropped out.

If she can do maths, it's going to be more useful for the next stage, Uni's will be looking for maths.

I don’t know where you are, but clearly where there are boys and girls grammar schools where you are like here in Warwickshire. Warwickshire has engineering schools that might take her with a 7 in Maths.
My daughter had a 7 in maths at GCSE and went from her engineering school to a new mixed grammar school for sixth form. She struggled. Really struggled. She found that the children at the grammar School had been taught differently and ahead of her. She also had a couple of bouts of really serious illness which didn’t help. In the end, we got private tutoring. And she chose philosophy rather than engineering to study at uni. Even with the weekly private tutoring she got a C in maths at A level. But her grammar school teachers were constantly predicting her to only reach a D which she found devastating.
Looking back, I would say, she needs to stay where she has a good social life to balance with the hard work that A-levels are. My daughter went to the engineering school for her GCSEs and it was 80% male. It was really hard for her. She was pleased she had had the experience, but I think we would’ve done it differently given the choice and with hindsight.

The DD is already at a grammar school - a girls one. Most dc don’t have an engineering school to go to post 16 that’s teaching university entry level qualifications. So it’s A levels at school or nothing.

The key here is realising she’s not good enough at maths for the maths A level and changing career objectives or moving school and getting a lower than ideal grade but having a chance of the career she wants via the slow route. It’s just a case of looking at other careers if she stays put and there’s not much evidence of this - too much push for stem where dc aren’t suited isn’t good for them in every case.

Would the school compromise and let her start with maths as a 4th subject and if she’s not doing well enough drop it, but if she is she could drop the biology or psychology instead?

Can’t believe a 7 is not considered good enough do do A level anymore! Isn’t it supposed to be the equivalent of an old school A?!
It used to be at least a B to do A level when I was in school

Also as others have said physics is quite difficult without maths, not impossible but difficult. She may end up with a lower grade in it than if she had done physics and maths.
She may be better doing psychology, biology and chemistry but obviously that rules out any kind of physics/engineering degree

Doing Physics A level without Maths will be tough. A friend’s daughter has just done it and struggled all the way through compared to those who did both.
I would seriously consider changing if she’s set on Maths.

Compromising on subjects could literally change her life at this point .

Are you in Rugby by any chance? I understand LSS and RHS actually have a lot of cross over so she'd still see alot of the RHS people without much effort...

Have you checked whether she can even do physics without maths? When my daughter went to sixth form a few years ago, all three of the colleges/sixth forms that she was looking at insisted on them taking maths if they were taking physics - they couldn’t do it without the maths. Her boyfriend actually went on to do engineering at uni and definitely needed both physics and maths at a level to get onto the course.

I agree physics without maths is not a good idea, but it seems from the OP that the school is happy for her to do that. Seems odd tho – surely taking maths A level, even with a “lowly” grade 7, might be better support for her physics than the biology the school has accepted.