How limiting is it to do Maths, Further Maths and Physics only for A levels?

[Mumofteenandtween]

Dd (year 10) is academically very strong - particularly in maths and science. She also competes at international level at her sport. It is a sport that the UK is strong at so there is a decent chance that she will be able to make a career out it.

Her “Plan B” is engineering. I think the best A levels for this is probably Maths, Further maths and Physics. (And these are her favourite subjects.) If you take the sport out then it would be sensible for her to do a 4th A level. (Probably Chemistry. She likes chemistry.) Keep her options open. But she is likely to spend a decent proportion of her A level years competing abroad so that level of course load would be tough. She has also been advised against science A levels by parents of older girls as it is difficult to catch up on missed practicals etc whilst maths (for example) can be done anywhere.

But I do worry about limiting herself. How bad is it?

This is nonsense on stilts and the snark really isn’t needed. Try reading what I wrote. I never said it wasn’t a hard A level-it’s probably the hardest.

However, there are some universities/courses that do not count maths and further maths separately eg medicine would not accept maths and FM plus a science as the entry requirements. If you read my further advice it was to look on the ucas website/uni websites to have a look at requirements for the course you want and make choices following that. It is highly probably that for maths/physics/engineering it would be fine-that’s why you do due diligence and do your research, but there is probably a reason why most pupils who do further maths do it as a 4th….as @ScaryM0nster states above (who has worked in uni admissions) “not everywhere really counts further maths as a full a level, and that view varies across different institutions. It’s not a top tier / lower tier thing”

The vast majority of unis accept FM as a third A-level, as do most medicine courses.

There's a list of medicine courses here: https://amsp.org.uk/medicine-entry-summary/
The ones with the yellow triangle have restrictions on Further Maths as a third.

However, the OP isn't looking to do medicine and it would be fine for engineering.

Ah thanks to those answering my query of @ScaryM0nster about which unis did not accept FM as a separate A level. So on @noblegiraffe's list, there are 11 out of 38 unis offering medicine which will not accept it. That's useful to know for sure.

But tbh even if the OP's DD ws thinking about medicine, there are still plenty of places that would be happy with FM (tho she would probs need bio or chem or both tbh anyway).

I am not aware of any other courses that don’t consider FM to be a full separate A level. Certs as others say, for engineering (or indeed CS or maths or anything related to those) FM, whether one of three or four A levels, can only be a positive.

No you are definitely not being an idiot! I actually get where you're coming from. and i'm sure she's headed for.a great future, some good advice here

It is a sport that the UK is strong at so there is a decent chance that she will be able to make a career out it.

Even if she does, unless perhaps it's tennis and she is world top 40 level, she will probably not be making the kind of money that means she can retire at 32 and "dabble" with her accumulated earnings. So getting actual qualifications is still important.

Regarding the A-levels: Maths/Physics/Chemistry unless she is aiming for Oxbridge, in which case they will want to know why she isn't also doing Further Maths.

As I understand that that’s not true about FM. If she is looking to do maths at uni, and wants to go somewhere higher ranking, for want of a better phrase, she needs to take FM if it is offered at her sixth form. The uni will not ask for it, but most students will have it as I and PPs have said.

I am talking here unis like Warwick or Bath or Leeds or UCL (and many others ofc). There will be unis which do not need FM for a maths degree or rather, where most students will not have it; but the OP’s DD sounds as tho she would be aiming high.

My partner did that, got a PhD in civil engineering but now works in an unrelated field he loves (still maths and science based)

I think the fact that your DD will be balancing A levels with elite sport training makes a difference.

Most students who take FM, find single maths pretty easy. So for a person with “that sort if brain,” M, FM and Phys might look like a soft option. To take maths, more maths and physics would be an easy way out, and they would look less rounded than the competition with 4 A levels. But I think the sports side balances things out and she will have a chance to discuss balancing elite level sport with her A levels in her personal statement.

I thought most people did 4 A-levels?

DS did Maths, FM, Physics and Economics

No. Afaik 3 was the most usual number even before they were reformed. It may be the case that most who do FM do it as one of four (and hopefully always start out with 4).

Answering because I needed to know the answer to this two years ago and can now reply from experience.

DS has just taken A-levels in maths, physics and FM. He got five offers for an MPhys, including Durham, Manchester and Sheffield, with predicted grades of A star x 2, A x 1.

He did start off doing four A-levels but dropped economics as soon as he was confident he could keep up with further maths. I was worried it was too narrow, but it’s been fine. FM had a heavy workload compared to the others - the upside is that Maths then seems fairly straightforward.

Edited to add that he did need to do the practicals in physics to meet his offers, so maybe ask about that. And that DS was originally looking at engineering but changed his mind during his A-levels.

For a stem career tack on chemistry. But maths, FM, physics is perfectly fine

This data is from 2023 - less than 5% take 4 a levels.

Oh

Agree with pps @Axczavd , even if they start with four (at some schools) most dc drop one in the first year.

Literally the only ppl in dd and ds2’s A level years at their school (2019 and 2021) who took four were those who did FM - and not even all of them.

There's no benefit to taking four as unis don’t ask for four, and you risk spreading yourself thin and gaining worse grades. AAA is better than ABBC.

Why would how many A levels others take matter, if unis only ever look at three A levels?

Does this include extra exams taken via private centers?

At my son's school, FM was always the 4th and you couldn't do it as part of a 3. That was because they did A level Maths in year 12 and then FM in year 13, with those struggling trying to do A level Maths in one year, not taking the exam and doing "normal" A level Maths in 13 instead of FM, so a kind of "opt out" option for strugglers. Maths and FM weren't taught side by side at all. I think OP needs to talk to the Maths dept to find out "how" they teach Maths and FM as schools seem to vary in their approach.

No idea - here’s the place I got it from:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/infographic-a-level-results-2023/infographics-for-a-level-results-2023

And I think it links to this wider report: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/a-level-and-other-16-to-18-results-2023-revised

I wouldn’t think that even if there were additional a levels through private centres, it would shift the balance that much though.

Offer wise doing 4 usually just gives you an extra stab at the grades. Offers normally specify 3 grades whether they are doing 3 or 4, so those doing 4 can get a lower grade in one and still meet the offer. The flipside of course is having to spread themselves thinner over the 2 years.

OP anecdotally we know several students who have dropped down from 4 A levels to 3, and a couple who have dropped from 3 to 2. In all cases the FMaths has stayed and they have dropped something else. So although the drop out rate may look higher for FMaths, that might be partly because these students dropping "NotMaths" are distributed across different subjects. They are really varied - art, music, history, psychology, chemistry off the top of my head.

I think the PE suggestion is worth exploring.

I'll add Psychology into the mix. It counts as a science for some university entrance purposes but there is no practical or coursework, and I think it has potential for being self taught. It is not trivial, it's huge and detailed but I think they are reducing the syllabus imminently. I think for a lot of students, especially the disciplined, it might be easier to self teach than Further Maths.

My DS handled 4 just fine. He did economics at university but found the physics helped with the climate science optional module he took.

Since the OP's DC is stem oriented then Chemistry A-level would be a great addition to have. Opens up chem eng or even natural sciences at Cambridge (where i think they expect 4)

For Natural Sciences at Cambridge you need Maths plus 2 sciences/FM (3 A levels total):

https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/courses/college-requirements-natural-sciences-physical-sciences

If OP is trying to keep open as many future options as possible, an essay subject wld be helpful. If focussed exclusively on STEM, M/FM/P will give lots of options and 3 A stars is better than 2 A stars and 2 As.

That's what they say on the website. I emailed and looked at FOI request the vast majority of successful applicants have 4 A levels. For PhysNatSci the vast majority do Maths, FM, Physics Chemistry

Haven’t read everyone’s responses but both of my DC did Maths, Further Maths, Physics and Chemistry A Levels which was doable because there is a fair bit of overlap.

Like others I’d say start 4 then she can drop one later if necessary.

Thanks everyone. This has been really useful.

One more question - EPQs? Her best friend’s brother is doing one and she is suddenly really enthusiastic about the idea.

They didn’t exist when Dh and I were teenagers so I don’t really know what they are and whether they are “necessary”, “useful”, “nice to have” or “a bit pointless”.

She is the type that if told to write between 1000 and 10,000 words will write 20,000 and then have a big panic trying to cut it down so I’m concerned about the “time suck” aspect of it.