How limiting is it to do Maths, Further Maths and Physics only for A levels?

[Mumofteenandtween]

Dd (year 10) is academically very strong - particularly in maths and science. She also competes at international level at her sport. It is a sport that the UK is strong at so there is a decent chance that she will be able to make a career out it.

Her “Plan B” is engineering. I think the best A levels for this is probably Maths, Further maths and Physics. (And these are her favourite subjects.) If you take the sport out then it would be sensible for her to do a 4th A level. (Probably Chemistry. She likes chemistry.) Keep her options open. But she is likely to spend a decent proportion of her A level years competing abroad so that level of course load would be tough. She has also been advised against science A levels by parents of older girls as it is difficult to catch up on missed practicals etc whilst maths (for example) can be done anywhere.

But I do worry about limiting herself. How bad is it?

in what way would she be limiting herself? double maths & physics are solid A levels for science or engineering so it should work out fine

Where would she be studying? Best to talk to them. Some places strongly advise against / don’t let you take “only” 3 a levels if one of them is further maths, because it’s v challenging and there are often people dropping out of FM as the pace / intensity / difficulty of maths learning is too high, and if someone drops FM any later than a few weeks in, they’d just be left with two. Her teachers may be able to advise, and the places she’s looking at for a levels should be able to say if they do this, or under what circumstances do they do it.

There are some specialist sixth forms for maths / physics etc which def do this - I guess they think by the time you’re at a specialist maths place you’re committed enough? She might want to see if there’s one of those nearby.

FWIW my son is y12 and has been doing maths, FM, physics and history. So for the purposes of relevant stem subjects for engineering, he’d have the same as someone doing maths, FM and physics - and that’s a great combo for pretty much any engineering apart from chem eng.

Would she be interested in a uni like Loughborough, if she’s continuing on the sports path? Might be worth looking at their courses.

Your child is international level at sports, gifted at maths and science, and you're wondering how limiting those could be? May I ask which world you are inhabiting? Your child will be absolutely fine.

AFAIK Further Maths isn’t counted within the tally, it’s generally a 4th A level, so she would need to pick another. Chemistry is a good option-nearly 1/3 of it is maths based, so it fits.

Have a look on uni websites though as they will give you more info as to what they count and what they don’t

DC did those subjects plus art A-level. Art didn’t count for uni entry so was equivalent. I think it’s fine if she’s confident in ability in FM

I wouldn't recommend four a levels if three are maths, further maths and physics. They are hard subjects at a level. My son is doing maths and physics and then music technology. He picked two subjects that will open doors later if he needs them and that he is good at, and one subject he loves. He is looking at sound and lighting engineering at university.

Also more specifically to your actual question - engineering is hugely broad and most engineering degrees just want maths and physics. FM is great to have and will make the first year of uni easier but unless she’s applying to Cambridge or imperial or possibly one or two others where they really do heavily recommend it and nearly everyone will likely have it, it’s fine to do engineering with just maths and physics - not at all limiting. And there are so many options within engineering itself.

I think this is a bit of a myth that some schools / colleges perpetuate. It’s a very hard a level, no doubling up, and all the engineering courses at unis we’ve been visiting / looking up over the last few weeks all say that maths FM and physics are fine, and they’ve mostly just said maths and physics to high grades, and they don’t care what else you’ve done with your time!

Not very limiting at all. She'd be well placed for a degree in engineering, maths, computer science, economics, and plenty of others.

I don't think there's any need to add a fourth A-level to the mix.

Double maths and physics is a pretty solid engineering combo.

They ONLY reason to start with 4 A levels is because a significant proportion decide they dislike FM at A level but can't drop it as they would otherwise only be left with 2 subjects.

Maths, FM & physics is an acceptable combination to apply for maths at Oxford. If FM is available she should take it if she wishes to study maths or engineering at a top university.

This isn't right. One of my DC got into Oxford with 3 A levels, including FM. The only concern would be the risk of finding the FM content too hard, and then having to find an alternative third A level. If she's a strong natural mathematician she should be fine.

I did maths, further maths, physics and chemistry for exactly the same reason and I regret it. I didn't benefit from the chemistry A-Level at all.

Personally I think she doesn't need a 4th A-level at all and pursuing a competitive sport brings her all the roundedness she needs. If she really wants to do more, then I would advise doing either an EPQ or perhaps psychology - something that she can link in to her sporting experiences.

Would she consider Maths, Physics and PE? As your DD is a serious athlete she'll probably find A level PE interesting and not too demanding. She'll score very highly on the practical component meaning it's likely to be relatively easy for her to achieve a high grade. As she's competing at a high level she's likely to have covered/will cover plenty of the theory within her training programme too. It's not an "easy" A level in absolute terms but for someone in your DD's position it's likely to be straightforward and will leave her more time in what I assume will be a packed schedule combining A levels and a high level training programme
My DS did that combination and it actually leaves lots of doors open. He is doing a Sports Engineering degree now but also had offers for general mechanical engineering degrees and could equally have gone down a Sports science route or various healthcare related courses. There are probably other options that he didn't consider too. Lots of the engineering degrees he looked at wanted Maths, Physics + something else and the grade seemed to be more important than what the something else actually is. And PE is accepted as an alternative to Biology for quite a lot of health science related courses.
It's not a common combination and lots of people thought DS was making a poor choice but it worked out well for him and certainly didn't stop him getting offers from some well regarded Universities.

To repeat previous posters, if she decides that she does want to do maths, FM and physics, she should start with 4, and then reassess once she has done a few weeks whether she thinks she is capable of getting a good grade in FM. We usually have a few drop out of FM and they are only able to do this because they are doing 4 A-levels. I've also had a student insist on starting with 3, then finding they really couldn't do FM and having to restart Y12 the next year.

I have to ask what is the competitive sport ? Tennis possibly, they will tell you anything. At year ten so 14 or 15 year old it is ridiculous to say that she may make a living out of it. My DD was ranked 3 in the country at her international sport at 16 years old and doesn't even compete anymore.
Did well at Uni though with a chemical engineering PhD good luck.

This and it is something to really think about. I would maybe start with 4 and pick another and see which one she wants to end up dropping down to.
starting with those 3 leaves little room for manoeuvre

I am old so this is somewhat outdated. But I have A levels in pure maths, applied maths, further maths and physics. Throughout my career I was often surprised at the number of people who commented on what good A levels I had. I didn't find it in the least limiting.

I would find out if they teach Maths one year then further maths the next year as that is the best way. Otherwise you need the Maths knowledge to be able to study further Maths but haven’t done it in the maths classes yet.
I know that wasn’t your question but it is a consideration with these two subjects.

I did this then doubled down with a pure maths degree.

Never knew what I wanted to do tbf, but our course was heavily targeted by data, science and engineering companies, everyone had a job lined up before they graduated.

So I guess it's only limiting if she wanted to do something that didn't use these skills. She won't do much by way of influencing, presenting, project management, demonstrating written ability, etc.

AI is the way forward in lots of technical jobs. I wonder how the science landscape will change in the future. But that's also true for research and content jobs.

She's obviously bright, if she realises the degree of her dreams needs a different a level she can take an extra year or two and sit another.

My DS did those A levels, went to Oxford and is an actuary.

Firstly, this is not true at all.

This is something we've looked into carefully as DC is a few years ahead. Similar to your DD but without the international sporting career 😀

Echoing PPs, the reason your DD should start with four is because aptitude for maths at GCSE level does not guarantee that her maths will be strong enough for FM A Level. Obviously having a GCSE grade 9 is a great starting point, but may students come unstuck and it is difficult to predict with certainty.

Most sixth forms now run the Maths and FM A Levels concurrently, sitting the FM AS Level in year 12. This is really helpful because it gives the student a good steer on whether or not they are likely to do well at the full A Level the following summer. They can then choose to drop with FM or their supporting subject, to concentrate on optimising the grades in three rather than four A Levels.

In terms of admissions - I've looked at this very closely and by doing this the only real university our DC is probably ruling themselves out of is Imperial, which does indeed expect 4 A-Levels. But I think Imperial was off the cards anyway for our DC because the admissions is incredibly tough. All other unis (including Oxbridge) seem happy with Maths, FM and Physics, and indeed FM seems to be preferred over a second science. Obvious exception would be chemical engineering which would need chemistry.

There is a very knowledgeable poster @poetryandwine who I think has experience in STEM admissions who may be able to advise.

I see the dilemma re sports but Further Maths is seen as an extra A Level.

It really isn't. Maths, FM and Physics is completely acceptable for the overwhelming majority of maths and engineering degrees, including top tier institutions.