How limiting is it to do Maths, Further Maths and Physics only for A levels?

[Mumofteenandtween]

Dd (year 10) is academically very strong - particularly in maths and science. She also competes at international level at her sport. It is a sport that the UK is strong at so there is a decent chance that she will be able to make a career out it.

Her “Plan B” is engineering. I think the best A levels for this is probably Maths, Further maths and Physics. (And these are her favourite subjects.) If you take the sport out then it would be sensible for her to do a 4th A level. (Probably Chemistry. She likes chemistry.) Keep her options open. But she is likely to spend a decent proportion of her A level years competing abroad so that level of course load would be tough. She has also been advised against science A levels by parents of older girls as it is difficult to catch up on missed practicals etc whilst maths (for example) can be done anywhere.

But I do worry about limiting herself. How bad is it?

That’s not true. My DS did Maths, FM and Physics at A Level and has now just finished his first year at a top Uni for Engineering (he’s going Civil). He had offers from all 5 Unis that he applied for. He has said that because he’s done FM, it’s been a big advantage for him.
Those three subjects are not limiting if she wants to do Engineering- in fact, they’re the perfect combo

Yes as others say, this is not the case. FM is an A level in its own right. In DS2's year (2019-2021) it was timetabled totally separately at his school.

Mate of his did maths, FM and PE and went to Bath to study maths.

Agree with @noblegiraffe and others tho that it’s a good idea to take four, at least at first in case FM doesn't work out and she needs to drop it. I think @MrsAvocet has the shout – the first thing I thought when I read your post @Mumofteenandtween was what about PE A level as a fourth? DS took it and it’s broadly biology, very sciency, did not stop him getting offers from great unis. Plus with her ability she would be there already on the practical element.

But lots of schools and sixth form colleges treat it like that.

Yes, for the reasons given above - it is a very challenging A Level and it is difficult to know how any given student will cope with based on GCSE performance. Starting four subjects gives the student the option of dropping FM OR the fourth subject. If they only start with three, and find FM too hard to do well in, then they will be in a really tight spot.

And of course, although it is a great combination for Maths, Engineering and Physics degrees, it will be more limiting for a student who is not certain that they want to study one of those subjects as university.

A star A star A star is universally ranked higher than A star A star A A for admissions into maths and engineering.

Well, this is what I mean. It so often gets dropped that it's a fourth A Level as far as most are concerned

Thanks everyone for all the advice. It has been really helpful.

I think that the “start with 4 and then decide which to drop” is a good idea. I did FM A level and our class did fall in size quite a bit now I think about it. The only difficult bit will be making sure she does actually drop one as isn’t good at letting go of stuff.

We will be touring 6th forms in the autumn so we can see what they allow and don’t allow. Unfortunately her current school doesn’t have a 6th form so we can’t get advice from them. I have to admit I do trust the “mumsnet hive mind” more than random teachers I don’t know to be able to give the best advice though.

Re:- limiting. I’m not exactly sure what I meant. Obviously it would limit her to a fairly narrow field of subjects at university (if she ends up going) but it is the subjects she wants so maybe that is fine. If I’m really honest I also worry that only 3 A levels will make her look a bit rubbish in comparison to other applicants who will probably have more.

And thanks to @Eaglemom for pointing out (nicely!) that I am being a catastophising idiot! I do have a habit of that. I have struggled with DD’s sporting abilities as it is outside my own life experience. Sometime feel like we are two cart horses who have been given Red Rum to raise and I am pretty terrified that we will fuck it up!

This is nonsense on stilts. Please don’t repeat it. Further Maths is an extremely hard, if not the hardest,A level and stands on its own as a valid A level.

3 A levels including further maths will impress any university or employer.

It is not and should never be described as only a 4th A level.

It will be suitable for any stem subject except medicine but that could be fixed by adding chemistry or science

@Mumofteenandtween if she’s y10, there are probably some sixth form college open days this summer - I’ve got a y10 and we went to one last week, and there’s another in a couple of weeks time. They all have them in the autumn too but there might be a good chance to get in a bit earlier than that to start asking questions and thinking about it - they’re often making sixth form applications after autumn half term, so the more sink time for thinking and assessing options, the better. Also though, the larger sixth form colleges usually offer plenty of flexibility for changing courses up till just before starting the actual course, so there’s still plenty of time in that sense.

Engineering, maths, comp sci/ data, engineering, physics - all possible with the combination you mention including at top universities. It’s actually a good combination with some overlap between physics and maths.

I don’t think any of what you’ve said is limiting, but I do think it’s going to be a lot of intensive subjects with no let up.

if she’s interested in engineering then a complementary lighter subject for her to do could be Design & Technology

Coming from the angle of being an engineer, who has worked in university admissions, and graduate recruitment.

Maths, F Maths and Physics is slim, and Further Maths is hard.

It’s definitely worth looking at admissions requirements and preferences for courses that she might be interested in (look at the stretch targets, the likely level and the back up plan). Not everywhere really counts further maths as a full a level, and that view varies across different institutions. It’s not a top tier / lower tier thing.

Even Cambridge don’t rely on people having done further maths. It makes first year easier but it’s not a must have. Some courses may require something that involves writing to show that breadth that’s ultimately needed for professional body accreditation.

Nonsense on stilts - love that @Escapefrom1984

@Mumofteenandtween very few students take more than three A levels now. Yes, a god number taking FM will take four, but not all, and the vast majority of unis will offer on three.

Yes she is limiting herself re uni, but that’s always the case with A levels. Those choices could lead to maths, physics or engineering degrees, or comp science, probably other science based options. There’s not really a way to keep all uni options open. Dd took Eng lit, geog and French so could have done degrees in those - yes, but not any science, not engineering, nor maths (which was fine btw).

Not everywhere really counts further maths as a full a level

Where doesn’t count it and for what course , out of interest @ScaryM0nster ?

I agree that unis do not demand FM but that’s often bc not all sixth forms offer it. For a maths-heavy degree at a highly ranked university, research on MN suggests many or even most will have it.

M, P and FM sounds like a good plan to me tbh but if she has a view on where she’d like to apply, I would look at those engineering departmental websites, and maybe she could call them. I find it really hard to imagine that most departments wouldn’t want to snap her up but I accept that for these A levels there are a lot of kids out there who will be predicted (and will get) 4 A*.

Ds was doing 4 and did find FM a jump up but with a single tutor session in the second term for the Algorithm module he settled in to it. Chemistry was a heck of a (boring) workload.

Does she know what kind of engineerIng she wants to study, or does she want to start general and specialise later?

Cambridge engineering requires FM if your school / sixth form offers it. In practice so many applicants have it that anyone without will struggle (this was me in physical sciences natsci).

Minimum offer levelA level: AAA
IB: 41-42 points, with 776 at Higher Level
Other qualifications: Check which other qualifications we accept.
To apply to any of our Colleges for Engineering, you will need A levels/IB Higher Levels (or the equivalent) in:
mathematics
physics
further Mathematics to AS or A level if your school offers it. Check the guidance on this page
If you’re studying IB, we ask for Analysis and Approaches for this course. If this isn’t an option at your school, please contact your shortlisted College(s) for advice.
Colleges usually require A in Mathematics and/or Further Mathematics. Colleges may also require an A/7 in specific subjects (likely Chemistry or Physics) as part of your offer. Please review the webpages of your shortlisted College(s) before applying.
If you apply to Peterhouse, you may also be asked for grade 2 in STEP II.
Further Mathematics A level and additional maths If your school offers Further Mathematics to AS or A level, you should take it. Additional mathematics is helpful. All candidates are strongly encouraged to take up opportunities to develop their skills.
If Further Mathematics is not available to you, or you’ve recognised its desirability too late, we’d advise you to take as much additional pure maths and mechanics as possible. You could study AS Further Mathematics content independently or by use online resources covering advanced material. If you would like further guidance, please contact your shortlisted College(s)

If I’m really honest I also worry that only 3 A levels will make her look a bit rubbish in comparison to other applicants who will probably have more.
OP, in 2024 about two thirds of 18 year olds sitting A levels in England and Wales "only" sat 3 A levels. Just over 5% did 4 or more. And of that 5% very few will be simultaneously performing at national or international level in a sport. Your DD will not "look a bit rubbish" if she achieves 3 good A level grades. If anything, I'd be more worried about her potentially overstretching herself and reducing achievement across the boardif she attempts 4. 3 higher grades will almost always trump 4 lower ones.
It's often said on here and it's very true, but do not underestimate the increase in workload between GCSE and A level. Plus I would imagine that the intensity of her sporting training will ramp up post 16 too. 3 A levels is plenty in the vast majority of situations, even without an international sporting career thrown into the mix.

DS did these A levels at a specialist 6th form. They did not allow students to study 4 A levels at this was in excess of uni entrance requirements. FM was not an add on and was the hardest A level to achieve a good grade. Perfect choice for engineering degree at a good uni. DS achieved A star, A star, A. Choice of unis and courses. Not at all limiting. At one point he wanted to swap FM for computing because it was easier to get a good grade. But unis know it is easier too so rate an A in FM higher than A star in computing.

My son did 3 A levels. Math, FM, and computer science. FM definitely not used as a 4 th A level. He missed quite a bit of school and managed to teach himself a fair chunk of it.

Cambridge doesn’t make fm an absolute requirement because not all students can take it. If the school offers it they do expect you to have taken it. But if the student isn’t already familiar with the content by some other means they would be at a huge disadvantage.

My dd did engineering there a few years ago and it’s a lot of content, fast paced. She had ‘just’ physics maths and FM, plus an AS in CS and a relevant EPQ. Echoing what many others have said, for engineering the first three are the most valuable, and are sufficient. But starting a fourth is definitely a good idea in case FM turns out to be too hard. Plus also just to have learned more regardless of whether they get a bit of paper for it. CS is definitely useful for engineers (and scientists), DD said she would have benefitted from doing a bit more chemistry too.

Further maths does count as one of your 3 so that isn’t an issue but with engineering many will have 4 a levels, most did on my DD’s course (she did have 4 levels but not further maths) the current guidelines for her course is 3 or 4 levels including maths and physics and a*

Further maths does count as one of your 3 so that isn’t an issue but with engineering many will have 4 a levels, most did on my DD’s course (she did have 4 levels but not further maths) the current guidelines for her course is 3 or 4 levels including maths and physics and a*

What type of engineering? DD is now 25 and a civil engineer, she did maths, physics, chemistry.

Is she going go have to be in a certain part of the country for her sport while at University? If so, look at the entrance requirements (subject wise) for the target universities for what shes interested in